God of Predestination is the Author of the sins?

[하토브]

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Hi Brother Joseph,

I am not sure we can reach the consensus, but let me try to explain my point of view a little more.
We should remember the God of Predestination theory is Almighty and can do everything, and He can predestine 100% people to be good and to believe in Him but He didn’t do it and had chosen only ca. 1% of the people to believe in Him and to go to Heaven, and the rest of the people not to believe in Him and as the result they are to reject Him, to mock and insult Him. That’s the problem with the theory of Predestination. The God of Predestination could have predestined the 100% people to believe in God and in His Son Yeshuah, but He didn’t do it for His Good Will and for His Pleasure.

...However, in case of God and Unbelievers of Predestination theory, Unbelievers can do nothing against the destiny set up by God. There is no way for any human being to escape from the destiny set up and fixed by God of Predestination theory, and the most of the people do not believe in Jesus Christ according to the destiny set up and predestined by God.]

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]Brother Joseph,

 

Your unspoken assumption above is that God is obligated to be merciful to all sinners by predestinating to save everybody in the whole human race.[/Quote]

Brother Joseph,

Good to hear from you.

Yes, it is correct that the underlying assumption is that God is merciful to all human beings and the Original Predestination by God was to save everybody in the whole human race.

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

 If mercy is obligated it is no longer grace. The very essence of mercy and grace is that it is undeserved. God may owe people justice, but never mercy.[/Quote]

Brother Joseph,

I often hear this kind of Logic from Calvinists.

Bible doesn’t classify the human choice or the human belief as the works as we read Romans ch 4:3, 4:5, 16)

Believing is not the work but the reaction from human beings expected by God.

The whole history of human race is the continuous reactions between God and men,

either cooperation or conflict.

There are some things that the Almighty God cannot do.

God couldn’t make Adam and Eve not to pluck off the fruits of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

If He had done so, His creation of sons of God should have been stopped.

Mercy was offered to all human race but if it is rejected, the Wrath of God stays there as much as the sins are there.

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

God already answered your objection above by in reply in scripture (please read the black highlighted verses, "11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." and "18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:11,13-15,18-20)

Furthermore, even if one accepts your premise that God is obligated to provide opportunity to all, then it follows that He is also obligated to give equal opportunity to all, yet experience plainly shows He has not done this. For example, the grace to hear and believe the gospel has obviously not been communicated to all men throughout history (e.g. Indians before Columbus arrived). ) Also, the scriptures teach that God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves. But the scriptures also teach that not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19), thus he does not love everybody. [/Quote]

Dear Brother Joseph,

1.    As for Jacob and Esau, many statements can mislead the people and therefore we have to be

     prudent in this matter.

A)   Esau never served Jacob in his life. On the contrary, Jacob bowed down to Esau and called him Adonai, Adonii( My Lord) ( Gen 33:3-10)

Jacob bowed down to Esau 7 times and called him Adonai, and told him that he had seen Esau as if he had seen the Face of God.

B)   God foresaw that Jacob is a perfect man ( Tam in Gen25:27 means Perfect in Hebrew- mistranslated by many versions)

C)   What Paul mentioned in Romans 9:12 was about the nations, and Edomites would serve Israelites.

D)   < ¹⁵ For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. >

God shows His mercy to the person whom God foreknew, the person who will accept His mercy, will be obedient to Himself.

E)    God foreknew that Pharaoh would not let Israel go ( Ex 3:19), therefore He deserted him and as a result he became hardened( Ex 4:21).

F)    << Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou

that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?">>

God is not Grumpy, and what Paul says here is that God has a certain reason for Himself that we don’t know, which doesn’t mean that God can do anything un-righteously or grumpily.

This verse must not be misunderstood as meaning that God can do many funny things as like a grumpy boy.

But it means that God has a good reason for His operation of the universe beyond our comprehension, but He works for the Justice and Righteousness, and Holiness all the time.

It doesn’t mean that God predestined only a few % of people to believe in Him while He predestined the most of the people

 not to believe in Him and to reject Messiah and thereby to commit sins and to be wicked to kill the Christians, and to insult Himself, the Almighty and Holy God.

This is a great misunderstanding by the Calvinists, as if God is like a grumpy boy.

Here again I find some problems with the Hermeneutics of the Calvinists.

G)   God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Here the word Hate must be reviewed again.

Jacob hated Leah (Gen 29:31). Was Leah really hated by Jacob? She was less loved by Jacob than Rachel was.

God loved Esau as well! But He loved Esau less than Jacob. Why? Because He foreknew that Jacob was a perfect man ( Gen 25:27) and would love

Him while Esau would love hunting and the heathen women, disobeying Him, would neglect the importance of the Birthright.

2.    The providence of God’s management for the whole universe was a matter of time sequence and many parts of the human history cannot be fathomed

so easily that we can grasp and explain in a few pages.

Since the Babel Tower in Gen 11, people departed from thence. But even before the Babel Tower, people departed from Middle East,

Some of them were Northern Asians who moved toward East ( Gen 10:30) The Eastern mountain area might be the Pamir Mountain area,

and they moved further to Mongolia, Siberia ( Shephar in Gen 11:30). At that time they may have departed from the presence of God too quick.

There must be many reasons and they could feel after Him or grope after Him. But in such cases they may be punished less ( Acts 17:30) as Jesus taught

The less punishment (Luke 12:48). God didn’t predestine the most people not to believe in Him, but they departed from Him.

In that sense, the Love of God is poured out everywhere, even to the wicked people ( Mt  5:45)

God Loves Everybody but there may be some difference among the people because He foreknew the human reactions in advance.

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

Brother Eliyahu,
God did not, to use your words above, have to "program and insert unbelief and wicked minds" into unbelievers. The fall of Adam corrupted the whole human race as we were present in seed form, this is why Romans declares, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12) [/Quote]

Brother Joseph,

Before the Fall, according to the Predestination Theory, God predestined the most of the people not to believe in Him and to become wicked.

If you claim that God didn’t do so, then you are departing from the theory of Predestination.

Predestination theory is to believe that even the Fall of Adam and Eve was predestined before the Creation, for His Good Will and Pleasure.

Yes, indeed we were there in the loin of Adam when the first couple committed the Sin.

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

According to the meaning of the word predestination, as given in our standard dictionaries and the greek meaning of the work used in the New Testament,

it applies only to the predetermination of an act. Some things God predetermined to do, while other things he predetermined others should do.

God directly predetermined to do all acts of good on this earth and he predetermined that others would do all the acts of evil on this earth,

but he has uses these evil acts to produce a greater good- Take for example, the crucifixion of Christ, the most evil act of mankind ever-was of God's predetermined plan according to scripture.

"And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) Also, "26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:26-28) and finally, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). He used these acts to bruise his Son, make him Sin, thus redeeming his people so they can live with and in him for all of eternity. This is the greatest act of love this world has or ever will see.[/Quote]

When Predestination Theory tries to escape the burden of the Author-ship for the sins, it should get closer and more similar to the Foreknowledge.

This was the problem with the Predestination Theory.

Was the Predestination of the most of the people not to believe in Him and causing them to be wicked a greater Good?

What if God, as the Almighty God who can make 100% people to believe in Him and thereby let them live the holy life obedient to God, predestined 100% people

Believe in Him and never to commit sins at all? Was it less good?

As for Acts 4:26-28, I already explained it. God didn’t cause Pilate, High Priests, Elders, Sadducees, Scribes, to be wicked. But they were already wicked. God foreknew their wickedness.

Therefore, God wanted to utilize such wickedness for the redemption of the world.

God placed His Son into that situation so that the Son, Yeshuah might be killed resulting in the World Redemption.

God’s Counsel and Determination was not the Wickedness of Pilate, High Priests, Elders, Gentiles and Israelites, but the accomplishments of the World Redemption.

God never predestined the people of Israel and Gentiles to be wicked but was to utilize such wickedness.

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

The wickedness was already there in the Assyrian King's heart due to the fall of Adam (see Romans 5:12). God did not have to create unbelief, wickedness, etc in mankind. The fall of Adam did that. God predetermined that the Assyrian King would attack the Israelites, used this according to his purpose to chastise the Israelites, then punished the Assyrian King for his wicked intent when he conquered the Israelites. [/Quote]

Brother Joseph,

This portion is similar to my understanding not to the theory of Predestination, because

Predestination theology teaches that God predestined the Assyrian King should attack Israel even before the Fall of Adam and Eve.

Predestination theology teaches that God predestined only a small fraction of the people were chosen to believe in Him, and the rest majority were deserted no to believe in Him, resulting

In the wickedness of the people.

Yes, God has His own personality and can react with His own purposes, but not for the wicked will or to make people be wicked.

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

If I can show that he predestinated one sin, my point is gained, that God can predestinate sin, but still remain not being the author of sin. It has been shown from numerous scriptures in this post that God predestinated the crucifixion of Christ(see Luke 22:22, Acts 4:26-28, and 2:23) . Will any one deny that the crucifixion was determined by the hand and counsel of God! Peter said they had killed the Prince of peace. Was their act not embraced in predestination? Therefore the assumption that he predestinates only what be does by his own hand, is illogical, unscriptural and untrue. When the Lord by the mouth of the prophet Isaiah declared, “It pleased the Lord to bruise him,” he did not see fit to tell the people then how he would do it, but we know now that it was by the hand of wicked men. These men acted voluntarily, yet their act was predestinated.

Brother Joseph  [/Quote]

God predestined 100% people to believe in Him and His Son, but on the contrary to His Will, human beings committed the Sin and the Sin entered this world.

The Almighty God was not creating the robots or puppets but the sons of God who have the free wills.

However, God prepared the B-Plan for that and prepared the Redeemer.

God predestined the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ by utilizing the wickedness of the human beings and place His Son into the situation where His Son could be killed.

It doesn’t mean that God made the High Priest, Elders, Pilate, Scribes to be wicked and murderous. God never willed the people to be so.

God just utilized such wickedness of human beings. If God willed and made the destinies of the human beings to be wicked and murderous even though He could make them all to be good and righteous, just and holy, He must be accountable for such wicked premeditation.

Al-Baghdadi may be the Master-mind of the ISIS which kill thousands of the innocent people.

Is he not guilty of sins? He is much less influential to the fighters of ISIS than God of Predestination can be to the wicked people of the world.

God of Predestination  theory is absolutely responsible for the sins of the world because such God of Calvinism preplanned and made the most of the people to have the inevitable destinies of not believing the Truth and Jesus Christ and thereby to commit all the crimes, even to insult and blaspheme the True God.

Yet, Calvinists insist that their God is not the Author of sins.

Such theory is to start from the false representation of the True God and to end with denial of the responsibility of destining the most of the people to be wicked.

If Osama Bin Laden planned for Sept 11 Bombing and masterminded the hijackers to blow the buildings, is he not the author of the sin?

God of Calvinism did much more things for the sins of the world, and the relations and ties between the God of Predestination and the crimes

Of the world is much more stronger than Osama Bin Laden’s involvement because one hair of the hijackers couldn’t fall without the permission of the God of Calvinism.

God of Calvinism orchestrated everything for the crimes of the Sept 11 hijackers and ISIS, Boko-Haram, Al-Shabab, Hezbollah etc.

It must be the common sense to rule such God of Predestination as the Author of the Sins if we can ask the high school students about such questions.

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

Brother Eliyahu,

If God did not purpose that sin should be in the world, can you give an intelligent reason why He arranged His creation so it would come into the world? Is not the fact that God arranged His creation and has conducted His government in such way as to admit sin into the world evidenced that He intended that it should be in the world? It is certain He could have had it otherwise if it had been His pleasure to have done so, but in some way which He has not been pleased to explain to us He has see fit to have things as they are.

Brother Eliyahu, scripture tells us "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent (Job 26:13). But that same Bible also tells us, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent;..." (Isaiah 27:1). What do you make of these scriptures? [/Quote]

Hi Brother Joseph,

1.    As I said, there are things which even the Almighty God cannot do. Especially, in the process of Creation of many sons of God, not the toys of God,

Freedom of the human beings and of the angels are in evitable and the human beings and the angels couldn’t follow His expectation and His Will.

Therefore such drop-outs took place. Read the parable of Good Seed and Tares in Mt 13:36-40

Why couldn’t God make all the seed be the good seeds? It is an on-going process of Creation and even God couldn’t make Adam and Eve not eat the fruits of knowledge of good and evil.

It was not His pleasure that the first couple committed the sins.

It was not His Will and Pleasure to see the people be wicked. They happen to be wicked against His Will and against His Pleasure.

If the God was pleased to see the most people be wicked, such God is grumpy and must be the Author of Sins.

God created the serpents to be good in the beginning as we read in Gen 1 ch. But after the sin entered, the serpents became crooked.

What Job and Isaiah were telling about was the status after the sin entered.

2.    God formed the beasts and animals before the sin entered. But they became crooked after the sin entered either thru the Satan or thru his angels.

However, when the sin problem disappear, the infants will play in the holes of the vipers (Isaiah 11:8)

and the snakes will not be harmful living in the soil ( Isaiah 65:35) God didn’t make the animals be wicked and crooked but they looked good ( Gen 1:25)

But when the sin entered either thru Satan and the angels first or thru the first couple, then the whole universe started to groan ( Romans 8:22)

[QUOTE=BrotherJoseph;2214341]

Brother Eliyahu,

You seem horribly shocked when I say God’s purpose predestines sinful acts of men, but will affirm with complacency that God foreknew all the sinful acts of men. You do not seem to realize that the foreknowledge of all things involves the same complications when weighed in a human balance that the predestination of all things does. If God foresaw that all of these awful things you have described were going to be committed and was present and had the power to prevent them and did not do it, would not every human tribunal judging Him according to man’s judgment, convict Him of being guilty of the crime? Then why charge such fearful consequences upon the purpose of God when it would be equally just to charge the same consequences upon His foreknowledge? Again you admit that before God made man He knew perfectly that he would do all of these awful things which you are so elaborate on; can you give an intelligent reason why God made such a being as would do those things? Why did it not make Him an angel, and never allow him to be subjected to temptation? Or why, after He made man and placed him in the garden, did He not exclude the serpent and prevent the transgression and all subsequent sins?

[/Quote]

Hi Brother Joseph,

Thank you very much for your bringing all the arguments possible against the Foreknowledge.

Again, as the most Calvinists miss, you misunderstand the attributes of God. Therefore you presumed that God had the power to prevent the Creation of the people’s unbelief and all the crimes.

However, as I emphasized many times, there are several things that even the Almighty God cannot do!

God couldn’t prevent the human beings from doing their own will and from rejecting the first commandment of God because God gave them the Free Will for behaving as the sons of God.

Restricting the human activities in detail and giving the free wills contradict each other, which Almighty God cannot do.

Neither we nor God can give the indefinite freedom to AA person and restrict him to do this and that at the same time.

You may say that the human tribunal cannot judge or charge the God of Predestination according to the human judgment.

However, the human conscience is not far from that of God since God created the human beings in His image and likeness.

God couldn’t command the human beings not to be masterminds of the sinners and the crimes while He willed and intended to create the most of the people to be wicked and to insult Himself for His Pleasure.

None of righteous and holy human beings would will such wickedness. God is not so different from human conscience.

<< can you give an intelligent reason why God made such a being as would do those things? >>

God could not create all the seeds to be good but many of them to be tares ( Matt 13:36-40) because He was creating the sons of God

which have the free wills, not the toys or the robots. Giving the Free-Wills and Restricting the human behaviors are contradicting each other.

Shortly speaking, Almighty God could not make all human beings obey His commandments.

To His regret, many creatures of His own became wicked (Gen 6:6). Didn’t He know that before ?

He knew it before but it happened though He wished such crimes wouldn’t happen.

The key components for the answer is to understand that there are several things that the Almighty God cannot do not because of His capacity but because some things contradict His truth and/or His attributes.

God cannot predestine each of the behaviors of the human beings while He give them enormous freedom so that they may behave as the sons of God, though He react for every behavior of the human beings according to His own attributes and styles.

In such case the term Predestination is far from the truth while the Foreknowledge may describe the reactions and the destinies of human beings better.

Dear Brother Joseph,

For the saving of times each other, you may answer me with sufficient time, like once a week, around the weekend, or even slower than that.

I think we’d better focus on the Author-ship of Sin in case of God of Predestination.

Thank you brother Joseph as I have enjoyed reading your thoughts which included all the possible arguments from the other sides.

Eliyahu