AT.
SHE DOESN'T.
WHO THE HELL IS SHE?
AND WHO SENT HER?
>> STAY TUNED FOR SCENES FROM
THE NEXT "GENERAL HOSPITAL."
>> ON THE NEXT
"GENERAL HOSPITAL" --
JAX:
SHE'S MY NEW GIRLFRIEND.
DILLON:
I THOUGHT YOU WERE
ON LUKE'S SIDE.
SKYE:
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
NIKOLAS:
THE WAR BETWEEN
OUR FAMILIES DIED WITH MY UNCLE.
COURTNEY:
CARLY WAS UPSET.
SHE SAID YOU DISAPPEARED
WITHOUT A WORD.
CARLY:
YOU'RE LONELY,
LORENZO.
LORENZO:
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW
I'M LONELY UNLESS YOU'RE LONELY,
TOO?
[CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE
BY ABC, INC.,
and JOHNSON & JOHNSON,
WHERE QUALITY HEALTH CARE
PRODUCTS HAVE BEEN A TRADITION
FOR GENERATIONS]
[CAPTIONED BY THE NATIONAL
CAPTIONING INSTITUTE]
Captioning sponsored by THE
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
and CBS
>> GOVERNOR HOWARD DEAN!
>> HOW DOES A FORMER GOVERNOR
FROM A SMALL NEW ENGLAND STATE
BECOME A FRONT-RUNNER TO BECOME
A PRESIDENT, IN PART ABECAUSE HE
POSITIONED HIMSELF DIME METRICLY
OPPOSED TO THE PRESIDENT.
>> WHAT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IN
THE WORLD SO MANY DEMOCRATS ARE
DOING SUPPORTING THE PRESIDENT'S
UNILATERAL INTERVENTION IN IRAQ.
>> Rather: AS AMERICAN
CASUALTIES RISE IN GOVERNOR
DEAN'S ANTI-WAR MESSAGE CAUGHT
ON, WE WASN'T LONG THE CROSS
COUNTRY TOUR AND SAW THOUSANDS
OF PEOPLE SHOW UP TO HEAR HIM
STATE AFTER STATE COAST TO
COAST.
>> MARTY LONG HAS A SEVERE CASE
OF DYSLEXIA.
>> JOOUL, IN A LOCKET STYLE
CASE.
THAT ENOUGH?
>> YEAH.
>> CHROESY ROBERTS ALSO HAS
DYSLEXIA, BOTH UNDERGOING WHAT'S
BEEN CALLED A REVOLUTIONARY
TREATMENT STIMULATING PART OF
THE BRAIN TO CORRECT DYSLEXIA.
WE FOLLOWED THEM FOR NINE MONTHS
AND TONIGHT YOU WILL SEE THEIR
RESULTS.
>> FUNCTIONAL YET DECORATIVE, A
PRIZE PIECE OF JEWELRY FOR A
WOMAN THAT HAVE TIME.
>> IT'S INCREDIBLE, SUCH A
CHANGE.
>> WHAT MAY SURPRISE YOU AS MUCH
AS IT SURPRISED US IS THE NAME
OF THE ONE OF THE CLERICS IN
IRAQ WHO SUPPORTS THE AMERICANS
WITH CONSIDERABLE FERVOR, AND
THAT'S BECAUSE HIS NAME IS HOME
MAINY AS IN THE AYATOLLAH HOME
MAINY.
MR. SADDAM COMB MAINIT LATE IT
TOLLA'S GRANDSON AND THEREFORE,
HEIR TO THE NAME.
>> YOUR GRANDFATHER WASN'T VERY
FOND OF AMERICANS IN FACT, HE
CALLED AMERICA I'M SURE YOU
REMEMBER THE GREAT SATAN.
WHY HAVE YOU COME FORWARD TIT
SPEAK TO AMERICANS?
>> I'M DAN RATHER.
>> I'M BOB SIMON.
>> I'M CHARLIE ROSE.
>> I'M VICKI MABREY.
>> I'M SCOTT PELLEY.
THOSE STORIES AND CHARLES
GRODIN, TONIGHT ON
"60 MINUTES II."
>> Rather: HE'S A DOCTOR, A
MEDICAL DOCTOR, WHO WANTS TO BE
PRESIDENT.
AND MUCH TO EVERYBODY'S
SURPRISE, HOWARD DEAN HAS JUMPED
TO THE HEAD OF THE DEMOCRATIC
PACK.
DR. DEAN IS MORE OFTEN CALLED
GOVERNOR DEAN.
HE WAS GOVERNOR OF VERMONT FOR
FIVE TERMS.
SO HOW DOES A FORMER GOVERNOR
FROM A SMALL NEW ENGLAND STATE
BECOME A FRONTRUNNER TO TAKE ON
THE PRESIDENT?
IN LARGE PART BECAUSE HE HAS
POSITIONED HIMSELF ASt(
DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO
PRESIDENT BUSH.
WE FOUND THAT OUT FOR OURSELVES
WHEN WE WENT TO VISIT HOWARD
DEAN IN HIS HOME STATE, AT HIS
FAVORITE DINER, THE OASIS, WHERE
HE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE
ISSUE THAT JUMP-STARTED HIS
CAMPAIGN: IRAQ.
>> Howard Dean: I BELIEVE AS
PRESIDENT THAT YOU'VE GOT TO BE
WILLING TO SEND TROOPS ANYWHERE
IN THE WORLD TO DEFEND AMERICA,
BUT ALSO I BELIEVE AS PRESIDENT
YOU NEVER SEND TROOPS WITHOUT
TELLING THE TRUTH TO THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT WHY WE'RE
GOING THERE.
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT
HAPPENED TO US IN VIETNAM.
WE SENT TROOPS TO VIETNAM
WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHY WE
WERE THERE, AND THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE WEREN'T TOLD THE TRUTH,
AND IT WAS A DISASTER.
AND IRAQ IS GOING TO BECOME A
DISASTER UNDER THIS PRESIDENCY.
>> Rather: THAT'S TOUGH
CRITICISM COMPARED TO HIS FELLOW
DEMOCRATS, WHO HAVE BEEN MORE
CAUTIOUS IN TAKING ON THE
PRESIDENT WHILE AMERICAN
SOLDIERS ARE FIGHTING OVERSEAS.
BUT GOVERNOR DEAN HAS BEEN
CONSISTENT IN HIS OPPOSITION TO
THE WAR.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID LAST MARCH,
BEFORE A SINGLE SHOT WAS FIRED
AT SADDAM HUSSEIN'S FORCES.
>> Dean: WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS
WHAT IN THE WORLD SO MANY
DEMOCRATS ARE DOING SUPPORTING
THE PRESIDENT'S UNILATERAL
INTERVENTION IN IRAQ.
I'M HOWARD DEAN, AND I'M HERE TO
REPRESENT THE DEMOCRATIC WING OF
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
>> Rather: BUT WE WANTED TO
KNOW, IF HOWARD DEAN WERE
PRESIDENT, WHAT WOULD HE DO NOW
IN IRAQ?
CAN WE AFFORD TO LEAVE?
CAN WE AFFORD TO PULL OUT?
WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENT?
>> Dean: YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT
BUSH IN HIS SPEECH SAID THAT
IRAQ NOW IS THE CENTRAL
BATTLEGROUND AGAINST TERROR.
THAT'S BECAUSE HE MADE IT THAT
WAY, AND THAT'S THE BAD PART
ABOUT THIS.
BUT THE FACT THAT IT HAS NOW
BECOME TRUE MEANS WE CAN'T JUST
PULL AND LEAVE THE IRAQIS TO
THEIR OWN DEVICES.
WE HAVE TO BE THERE.
NOW, IRAQ... THIS PRESIDENT HAS
TURNED IRAQ INTO A POTENTIAL
SECURITY EMERGENCY, SO WE CAN'T
CUT AND RUN.
WE NEED FOREIGN TROOPS IN IRAQ.
>> Rather: GOVERNOR DEAN IS ALSO
CRITICAL OF THE PRESIDENT FOR
GOING TO WAR WITHOUT MANY U.S.
ALLIES.
HE BELIEVES THOSE ALLIES HAVE
BEEN ALIENATED, AND HE WOULD
FOCUS ON RESTORING THOSE
RELATIONSHIPS.
>> Dean: THIS PRESIDENT DOES NOT
UNDERSTAND THAT HAVING HIGH
IDEALS AND A MORAL PURPOSE WHERE
PEOPLE ADMIRE THIS COUNTRY IS AN
IMPORTANT$PART OF OUR DEFENSE.
YOU WOULD BEARD PRESSED TO
FIND A MAJORITY IN TOO MANY
COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD WHERE
PEOPLE ADMIRE AMERICA AFTER TWO
AND A HALF YEARS OF THIS
PRESIDENCY.
>> Ralliers: WE WANT DEAN!
WE WANT DEAN!
>> Rather: AS AMERICAN
CASUALTIES KEEP RISING IN IRAQ,
GOVERNOR DEAN'S AGGRESSIVELY
ANTIWAR MESSAGE HAS CAUGHT ON.
WE WENT ALONG ON A CROSS-COUNTRY
TOUR AND SAW THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
SHOW UP TO HEAR HIM IN STATE
AFTER STATE, COAST TO COAST.
>> Dean: I KNOW THERE IS SOME
OVERFLOW ROOMS AS WELL.
AND I WANT TO THANK THEM... YOU
ARE THE OVERFLOW.
OH, MY LORD.
OH, LORD.
>> Rather: EVERYWHERE HE WENT,
HOWARD DEAN BLASTED AWAY AT
PRESIDENT BUSH, NOT JUST ON
IRAQ, BUT ALSO ABOUT JOBS AND
THE ECONOMY, AND PROMISING, IF
ELECTED, TO ROLL BACK THE
PRESIDENT'S TAX CUTS, WHICH DEAN
SAYS FAVOR THE WEALTHY.
HIS CRITICS SAY THAT WOULD
AMOUNT TO A TAX HIKE.
GOVERNOR, BOTH YOUR DEMOCRATIC
OPPONENTS AND THOSE IN THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY SAY, "LOOK,
GOVERNOR DEAN'S TALKING ABOUT
TAX INCREASES FOR THE MIDDLE
CLASS."
>> Dean: DAN, I THINK THIS IS
TYPICAL OF MY PARTY'S PROBLEM.
I JUST LAUGH AT THESE
POLITICIANS FROM WASHINGTON THAT
ARE PROMISING EVERYBODY
EVERYTHING.
"OH, TAX CUTS; YOU CAN HAVE
EVERYTHING YOU WANT."
WE CAN'T HAVE EVERYTHING WE
WANT, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A
CHOICE.
WE CAN HAVE A BALANCED BUDGET
AND JOBS AND PROSPERITY, WE CAN
HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND
FUNDING OF SPECIAL EDUCATION, OR
WE CAN HAVE THE PRESIDENT'S TAX
CUTS.
BUT WE CAN'T HAVE BOTH.
>> Rather: THE REELECTION FORCES
OF PRESIDENT BUSH HAVE TRIED TO
MARGINALIZE HOWARD DEAN BY
CALLING HIM A LIBERAL FORMER
GOVERNOR OF A SMALL STATE.
HIS DEMOCRATIC OPPONENTS SAY
JUST THE OPPOSITE, THAT HE
SOMETIMES SOUNDS MORE LIKE A
REPUBLICAN THAN A DEMOCRAT,
ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO
BALANCING BUDGETS.
BUT NO ONE IS CRITICIZING THE
FUND-RAISING SKILLS AT DEAN
HEADQUARTERS.
IT'S HARD TO FIND ANYONE HERE
ABOVE THE AGE OF 30.
BUT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE, MANY OF
THEM COMPUTER WHIZZES, HAVE BEEN
INVALUABLE.
WITH THEIR HELP, THE CAMPAIGN
HAS MADE UNPRECEDENTED USE OF
THE INTERNET AND RAISED $25
MILLION, MUCH OF IT IN SMALL
DONATIONS.
IN ADDITION, THE DEAN CAMPAIGN
USES THE INTERNET TO SHOW VIDEO
OF THEIR RALLIES LIVE, ALL OVER
THE COUNTRY.
AND THE CAMPAIGN ALSO BENEFITS
FROM THE INTERNET BECAUSE IT IS
USED TO ORGANIZE MEETINGS LIKE
THIS ONE IN MISSION VIEJO,
CALIFORNIA.
IT'S CALLED A MEETUP, A
GATHERING OF PEOPLE CURIOUS TO
LEARN MORE ABOUT DEAN, ON THE
FIRST WEDNESDAY OF VERY MONTH IN
CITIES AND TOWNS ACROSS AMERICA.
THIS MEETUP WAS IN NEW YORK.
GRASSROOTS DEAN SUPPORTERS, NOT
THE DEAN CAMPAIGN, ORGANIZE AND
SCHEDULE THESE GET-TOGETHERS ON
A WEB SITE, A SORT OF ELECTRONIC
BULLETIN BOARD CALLED
MEETUP.COM.
TO THE ENVY OF THE OTHER
CANDIDATES, IT'S BROUGHT TENS OF
THOUSANDS OF NEW SUPPORTERS TO
THE DEAN CAMPAIGN.
WHY DIDN'T THE OTHER CANDIDATES
GET ON THIS?
WHY DIDN'T THEY SEIZE THE SAME
OPPORTUNITY AT THE SAME TIME?
>> Dean: WELL, IT'S KIND OF
SCARY.
>> Rather: MEETUP IS THE
BRAINCHILD OF SCOTT HEIFERMAN.
>> Heiferman: YOU GOT A CAMPAIGN
WHO REALLY DIDN'T HAVE ANY
INFRASTRUCTURE, REALLY DIDN'T
HAVE MUCH MONEY.
AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE AN ABILITY
TO SET UP OFFICES IN EVERY TOWN
AND IN EVERY STATE.
AND IT WAS THE PEOPLE WHO TOLD
THEIR FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND
COWORKERS THAT THERE'S THIS
CANDIDATE THAT THEY LIKE, AND
THEY BROUGHT THEIR FRIENDS TO
MEETUPS, AND THE MEETUPS
STARTED.
AND IN THE FIRST MONTH IN FIVE
CITIES, AND THEN IT WENT TO 100
CITIES THE NEXT MONTH, AND
BEFORE YOU KNOW IT THERE WERE
HOWARD DEAN MEETUPS IN 800...
NEARLY 800 TOWNS ACROSS THE
AMERICA.
>> Rather: THESE INFORMAL
MEETUPS HAVE BECOME SO IMPORTANT
TO THE CAMPAIGN THAT NOW THE
CANDIDATE HIMSELF SOME TIMES
CRASHES THE PARTY.
>> Dean: THIS CAMPAIGN IS ABOUT
YOU, NOT ABOUT ME.
THIS IS ABOUT EMPOWERING THE
PEOPLE TO TAKE THEIR COUNTRY
BACK FROM THE RIGHT WING OF THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY.
(
CHEERS
)
>> Rather: HOWARD DEAN SEEMS TO
LOVE THE VERY PUBLIC CAMPAIGN
SPOTLIGHT.
BUT HE'S VERY PRIVATE ABOUT
HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY LIFE.
>> THIS IS BEAUTIFUL.
>> ISN'T THIS GREAT.
WE ARE OVERLOOKING LAKE
CHAMPLAIN.
THAT IS NEW YORK.
>> Rather: SO WHEN WE MET HIM AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT,
OVERLOOKING LAKE CHAMPLAIN, WE
TOLD HIM WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT
HIS PERSONAL BACKGROUND.
YOU'RE NEVER COMFORTABLE TALKING
ABOUT YOURSELF.
FIRST OF ALL, WHY IS THAT?
>> Dean: I'M NOT TERRIBLY
INTROSPECTIVE.
I REALLY AM A PRAGMATIST.
I WANT ACTION.
I WANT RESULTS.
SOME OF IT IS MY MEDICAL
TRAINING.
>> Rather: WE'LL MOVE ON TO
OTHER THINGS, BUT BEFORE MOVING
AWAY, YOU WERE BAPTIZED A
CATHOLIC?
>> Dean: YES.
>> Rather: RAISED BASICALLY AS
EPISCOPALIAN?
>> Dean: YEAH.
>> Rather: MARRIED A WOMAN OF
JEWISH HERITAGE?
>> Dean: UH-HUH.
>> R
her: YOUR CHILDREN ARE
BEING RAISED JEWISH, AREN'T
THEY?
>> Dean: UH-HUH.
>> Rather: BUT YOU ARE NOW A
CONGREGATIONALIST?
>> Dean: (
LAUGHS
)
WHAT A JOURNEY.
>> Rather: THAT JOURNEY BEGAN IN
A WEALTHY REPUBLICAN FAMILY.
THE GOVERNOR'S FATHER-- BIG
HOWARD, AS EVERYONE CALLED HIM--
WAS A STOCKBROKER WHO SUPPORTED
BARRY GOLDWATER.
HOWARD DEAN GREW UP ON PARK
AVENUE AND THE EXCLUSIVE
OCEANSIDE COMMUNITY OF EAST
HAMPTON ON LONG ISLAND.
WERE YOU A CLOSE FAMILY?
>> Dean: VERY.
MY FATHER WAS A VERY HARDWORKING
GUY, BUT EVERY FRIDAY, THE RULE
WAS WE ALL HAD FAMILY DINNER, NO
MATTER WHAT.
THERE WERE NO SOCIAL ENGAGEMENTS
IN THE DEAN HOUSEHOLD BEFORE
9:00 AT NIGHT ON A FRIDAY, SO WE
WERE CLOSE.
IT WAS FUN, TOO.
>> Rather: BUT AFTER HOWARD DEAN
WENT TO YALE, HE STARTED TO
REBEL AGAINST HIS FATHER'S BRAND
OF POLITICS.
>> Dean: THE VIETNAM PROTESTS
AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT
WERE REALLY IN FULL SWING.
AND THAT'S ACTUALLY HOW I ENDED
UP BECOMING A DEMOCRAT.
>> Rather: WELL, WHAT ELSE DID
YOU REBEL?
I MEAN, DRINK A LOT?
CHASE THE GIRLS A LOT?
>> Dean: WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S
NOT MUCH I AGREE WITH PRESIDENT
BUSH ON, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I
DECIDED BEFORE THIS CAMPAIGN
STARTED, THAT I WAS GOING TO USE
HIS LINE OF ATTACK WITH "MY
IRRESPONSIBLE YOUTH WAS MY
IRRESPONSIBLE YOUTH," AND I
WASN'T GOING TO GO INTO ANY
DETAIL ABOUT THAT.
>> Rather: WELL, I'M NOT GOING
TO ASK FOR DETAIL.
>> Dean: (
LAUGHS
)
GOOD, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING
TO GET ANY.
>> Rather: BUT YOU STOPPED
DRINKING AT ONE POINT?
>> Dean: I DID.
I QUIT DRINKING WHEN I WAS ABOUT
31 OR TWO.
>> Rather: WHEN HE WAS STILL IN
HIS 20s, THERE WAS A FAMILY
TRAGEDY THAT CHANGED HOWARD
DEAN'S LIFE FOREVER, A TRAGEDY
HE REMEMBERS EVERY DAY BY
WEARING A '60s-STYLE LEATHER
BELT, A BELT THAT BELONGED TO
HIS BROTHER, CHARLIE.
WHAT IS THIS BELT?
WHY DO YOU WEAR IT?
>> Dean: IT'S MY BROTHER'S.
I HAVE A BROTHER WHO WAS 24
YEARS OLD.
HE WAS TRAVELING IN LAOS WITH A
FRIEND, AND HE WAS CAPTURED BY
THE PATHET LAO, WHICH IS THE
LAOTIAN COMMUNISTS DURING THE
VIETNAM WAR, AND HELD IN
CAPTIVITY FOR THREE MONTHS, AND
THEN EXECUTED.
>> Rather: THIS WAS A YOUNGER
BROTHER.
>> Dean: HE WAS.
HE WAS 16 MONTHS YOUNGER THAN I.
>> Rather: WHEN THEY WERE
GROWING UP, THE BROTHERS WERE
CLOSE.
THAT'S CHARLIE ON THE LEFT,
HOWARD SITTING NEXT TO HIM.
CHARLIE WAS THE POLITICIAN IN
THE FAMILY, AND NO ONE WAS
SURPRISED WHEN HE WENT TO
INDOCHINA TO SEE THE EFFECTS OF
THE VIETNAM WAR.
>> Dean: I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN TO
THE SITE WHERE HIS BODY... WE
BELIEVE HIS BODY IS.
AND RIGHT NOW, THERE'S AN
EXCAVATION GOING ONTO SEE IF
THEY CAN FIND IT.
>> Rather: THIS CHANGED YOUR
LIFE, HOW?
>> Dean: IT GAVE ME A SENSE THAT
YOU OUGHT TO LIVE FOR THE MOMENT
WITH PEOPLE, THAT YOU REALLY
NEED TO TELL PEOPLE YOU LOVE
THEM IF YOU LOVE THEM.
IT WAS CERTAINLY THE MOST AWFUL
THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO OUR
FAMILY, AND IT WAS TERRIBLE FOR
MY PARENTS.
IT WAS EVEN WORSE FOR THEM THAN
IT WAS FOR US.
>> Rather: AT THE TIME, HOWARD
DEAN, WITHOUT TELLING HIS
PARENTS, HAD STARTED TAKING
NIGHT CLASSES AT COLUMBIA SO HE
COULD QUALIFY FOR MEDICAL
SCHOOL.
HE WAS ALSO WORKING ON WALL
STREET.
AFTER CHARLIE DIED, HE STUDIED
EVEN HARDER AND MANAGED TO GET
INTO THE ALBERT EINSTEIN COLLEGE
OF MEDICINE IN THE BRONX.
THAT'S WHERE HE MET HIS WIFE AND
FUTURE FELLOW DOCTOR, JUDITH
STEINBERG.
CAN WE TALK ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE?
TELL ME ABOUT YOUR WIFE.
>> Dean: SHE'S GREAT.
SHE'S A VERY BRIGHT WOMAN, AND
WE USED TO DO THE CROSSWORD
PUZZLE IN THE BACK OF THE
NEUROANATOMY CLASS, WHICH WAS
THE MOST FRIGHTENING CLASS FOR
ANY YOUNG MEDICAL STUDENT.
AND THE PASSING WAS 34.
I GOT A 35 AND SHE GOT A 99 ON
THE TEST, WHICH TELLS YOU OUR
RELATIVE BRAIN SCALE.
>> Rather: DR. JUDITH STEINBERG
IS NOT ONLY SMART, BUT ALSO VERY
INDEPENDENT.
SHE WAS THERE WHEN HER HUSBAND
ANNOUNCED HE WAS RUNNING FOR
PRESIDENT, BUT SHE DOES NOT
CAMPAIGN FOR HIM.
SHOULD SHE BECOME THE FIRST LADY
OF THE UNITED STATES, WOULD SHE
GIVE UP HER MEDICAL PRACTICE?
>> Dean: NO, SHE WILL NOT GIVE
UP HER MEDICAL PRACTICE IF SHE
BECOMES FIRST LADY.
SHE WILL ENTERTAIN AT SOME STATE
DINNERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT,
BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE HER
LIFE.
HER LIFE IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO
BE MEDICINE.
>> Rather: EVENTUALLY, HOWARD
DEAN SAYS, HIS WIFE WILL
CAMPAIGN FOR HIM.
IN THE MEANTIME, HE HAS SOME
IMPORTANT DECISIONS TO MAKE.
THE MOST IMMEDIATE: HOW TO DEAL
WITH THE INSTANT CANDIDACY OF
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK.
THERE'S A LOT OF SPECULATION THE
DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT,
INCLUDING THE CLINTONS, SUPPORT
CLARK TO SLOW DOWN DEAN, OR HOLD
A PLACE BE A STALKING HORSE FOR
HILLARY CLINTON.
LET'S TALK ABOUT FORMER
PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON.
I NOTICED IN THE DINER THAT
THERE'S A PICTURE OF YOU WITH
HIM WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT.
WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AND BILL
CLINTON?
>> Dean: I DON'T THINK ANYTHING
BAD HAPPENED TO ME AND BILL
CLINTON.
WE SEEM TO GET ALONG REASONABLY
WELL.
>> Rather: BUT HE'S NOT
SUPPORTING YOU IN THIS RACE.
>> Dean: WELL, HE'S NOT
SUPPORTING ANYBODY IN THIS RACE.
>> Rather: YOU DON'T THINK HE'S
SUPPORTING WESLEY CLARK?
>> Dean: I DON'T, BUT I DON'T
KNOW.
I HAVEN'T ASKED HIM ABOUT IT.
AND I DO NOT BELIEVE WES CLARK
IS A STALKING HORSE FOR THE
CLINTONS.
AND THEY'VE BASICALLY... HILLARY
BASICALLY TOLD ME SHE WASN'T
GOING TO RUN.
AND BILL CLINTON TOLD ME THAT HE
WAS NOT NECESSARILY SUPPORTING
ANY PARTICULAR CANDIDATE AND HE
WASN'T GOING TO BE DOING THAT.
>> Rather: YOU BELIEVE THAT?
>> Dean: YES.
>> Rather: YOU MUST HAVE PEOPLE
IN YOUR STAFF WHO SAY TO YOU,
"GOVERNOR, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT,
YOU'LL BELIEVE WATER RUNS
UPHILL."
>> Dean: (
LAUGHS
)
>> Rather: HE MAY LAUGH ABOUT
IT, BUT HE KNOWS A LOT OF PEOPLE
THINK GENERAL CLARK JUST LOOKS
PRESIDENTIAL.
GOVERNOR DEAN'S JOB, IN THE
MONTHS AHEAD, IS TO CONVINCE
PEOPLE HE'S UP TO THE JOB.
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK EVEN A
FIVE-TERM GOVERNOR IN A STATE
WITH THREE ELECTORAL VOTES AND
ONLY ONE AREA CODE CAN PRODUCE A
PRESIDENT TO REPRESENT A BIG
CONTINENT, A COUNTRY, DIVERSE
COUNTRY SUCH AS OURS?
>> Dean: WHAT PEOPLE LOOK FOR
WHEN THEY ELECT A PRESIDENT IS
VALUES AND STRENGTH.
I WAS ABLE TO FIGURE THAT THE
PRESIDENT WASN'T BEING CANDID
WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ON THE
IRAQ ISSUE LONG BEFORE ANY OF MY
COMPATRIOTS WHO ARE RUNNING IN
THIS RACE WERE ABLE TO FIGURE IT
OUT.
IF I CAN FIGURE THAT OUT, I CAN
BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES.
>> Pelley: TONIGHT, CHRISTIANE
AMANPOUR OF CNN ON SPECIAL
ASSIGNMENT FOR "60 MINUTES II."
>> Amanpour: YOU MAY NOT KNOW
IT, BUT CHANCES ARE, SOMEONE
CLOSE TO YOU HAS DYSLEXIA.
AS MANY AS ONE IN TEN OF US HAS
SOME FORM OF IT, A DEBILITATING
CONDITION WHERE LETTERS ARE
SCRAMBLED, WORDS ARE BLURRED,
AND READING IS DIFFICULT, IF NOT
IMPOSSIBLE.
FINDING AN EFFECTIVE TREATMENT
HAS PROVEN ELUSIVE.
BUT A SURPRISING NEW TREATMENT
BASED ON A SERIES OF SIMPLE
EXERCISES TO STIMULATE A PART OF
THE BRAIN HAS BEEN GETTING RAVES
IN BRITAIN, AND NOW IT'S COMING
TO AMERICA.
IT IS RAISING HOPES AND RAISING
QUESTIONS.
DOES IT REALLY WORK?
OVER A PERIOD OF NINE MONTHS, WE
FOLLOWED TWO PEOPLE WITH SEVERE
DYSLEXIA, AND TONIGHT YOU'LL SEE
THEIR RESULTS.
MARTIN LONG IS ONE OF THEM.
HE'S MANAGED TO CARVE OUT A
SUCCESSFUL CAREER IN
ADVERTISING, EVEN THOUGH HE'S
SEVERELY DYSLEXIC.
WOULD YOU MIND READING FOR US
FROM THIS PARAGRAPH?
>> Long: YEAH.
>> Amanpour: CAN I JUST OPEN IT
WHEREVER I OPEN IT?
>> Long: YEAH, SURE.
>> Amanpour: FROM THE BEGINNING
OF THAT CHAPTER?
>> Long: OKAY.
"IT WAS 17 JEWEL ELGIN IN A
LOCKET STYLE CASE."
IS THAT ENOUGH?
>> Amanpour: YEAH.
>> Long: IT'S SO HARD FOR ME TO
READ, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT I'VE
READ THERE.
>> Amanpour: MARTIN SAYS THAT
WHEN HE READS, IT'S LIKE HAVING
TO LEARN EACH WORD AS IF HE HAD
NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.
NINE-YEAR-OLD CHLOE ROBERTS HAS
THE SAME PROBLEM.
DO YOU WANT TO SHOW ME HOW YOU
READ?
>> Roberts: OKAY.
I'M NOT THAT GREAT.
>> Amanpour: DO YOU MIND?
>> Roberts: NO.
>> Amanpour: YOU CAN PICK ANY
PAGE YOU WANT.
>> Roberts: WELL, "WE SHAN'T
BE..."
I'M NOT VERY GOOD.
>> Amanpour: "QUITE."
>> Roberts: "WE SHAN'T BE QUITE
ALL..."
>> Amanpour: CHLOE'S DYSLEXIA
WAS DIAGNOSED WHEN SHE WAS
SEVEN.
BUT DYSLEXIA OFTEN GOES
UNRECOGNIZED, AND THOSE WHO HAVE
IT ARE TREATED AS IF THEY WERE
STUPID OR DISRUPTIVE IN CLASS.
MARTIN LONG IS STILL HAUNTED BY
WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AT SCHOOL.
>> Long: I HAD ONE HORRIFIC
TEACHER.
SHE WOULD PHYSICALLY DRAG ME
INTO THE NEXT CLASS AND SAY,
"LOOK WHAT THIS STUPID BOY HAS
DONE."
>> Amanpour: AND WHAT HAD YOU
DONE?
>> Long: PROBABLY A SPELLING
TEST OR SOMETHING.
>> Long: I'D BREAK DOWN.
I WENT TO THE DOCTOR.
I WAS ON VALIUM AS A SMALL 11-
YEAR-OLD CHILD.
THE DESPERATENESS OF DYSLEXIA IS
HORRIFIC WHEN NO ONE UNDERSTANDS
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
AND IT'S NOT... YOU'RE NOT AN
IDIOT.
>> Amanpour: WHAT'S IT LIKE?
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
HOW DO YOU FEEL?
>> Roberts: WHEN THE TEACHER IS
DESCRIBING SOMETHING TO CLASS,
YOU UNDERSTAND IT, BUT
IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS, YOU
FORGET IT, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO
GO AND ASK HER.
AND SOMETIMES SHE GETS A BIT
CROSS.
>> Amanpour: SO THE TEACHER GOT
ANGRY WITH YOU WHEN YOU ASKED
SORT OF BASIC QUESTIONS.
>> Roberts: YEAH.
>> Amanpour: WE STARTED FILMING
CHLOE AND MARTIN LAST DECEMBER,
AND WE FOLLOWED THEM FOR THE
NEXT NINE MONTHS AS THEY BEGAN
WHAT IS A CONTROVERSIAL NEW
TREATMENT.
THE TREATMENT INVOLVES SIMPLE
EXERCISES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO
HELP OVERCOME DYSLEXIA.
CHLOE ROBERTS HAS BEEN TOLD TO
THROW A BEAN BAG FROM SIDE TO
SIDE, AS PART OF A SET OF
EXERCISES TAILORED
ESPECIALLY FOR HER.
>> ONE AND TWO AND THREE AND
FOUR DOCTOR
>> Reporter: SHE ALSO HAS TO
COUNT WITH HER ARMS
OUTSTRETCHED-- THAT'S HER MOTHER
HELPING HER-- AND SHE'S GOT TO
BALANCE ON A WOBBLE BOARD.
WHAT ARE YOU MEANT TO DO ON
THERE?
>> Roberts: JUST TRY AND KEEP MY
BALANCE.
SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO ROLL
AROUND THE EDGE LIKE THAT.
>> Amanpour: DIDN'T YOU THINK IT
WAS KIND OF A WEIRD THING TO DO
FOR DYSLEXIA?
>> Roberts: I DID.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHY I HAD TO DO IT
AT FIRST, BUT.
I STILL DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHY
I HAVE TO DO, LIKE, THROWING A
BEANBAG AND THINGS.
>> Amanpour: EVERYONE ON THIS
PROGRAM HAS TO DO THE EXERCISES
FOR TEN MINUTES EVERY MORNING
AND EVERY NIGHT.
MARTIN LONG HAS BEEN PRESCRIBED
A SIMILAR ROUTINE.
THE THEORY BEHIND THE TREATMENT
IS THAT CONSTANT REPETITION IS
SUPPOSED TO ACTIVATE DORMANT
NEURAL PATHWAYS IN A PART OF THE
BRAIN CALLED THE CEREBELLUM.
THIS IS A MODEL OF THE BRAIN,
AND THIS IS THE CEREBELLUM AT
THE BASE OF THE BRAIN.
FOR A LONG TIME NOW, IT'S ONLY
PURPOSE WAS THOUGHT TO BE
CONTROLLING THE BODY'S MOTOR
FUNCTIONS.
BUT RECENT RESEARCH HAS LED SOME
SCIENTISTS TO BELIEVE THAT IT
ALSO MAY PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE
IN READING AND SHORT-TERM
MEMORY.
THE TEAM BEHIND THE EXERCISE
TREATMENT BELIEVES THAT
DYSLEXICS HAVE CEREBELLUMS WHICH
ARE NOT FULLY DEVELOPED, AND
THEY SAY THAT THEIR EXERCISES
WILL CORRECT THAT PROBLEM.
IT'S A CONTROVERSIAL THEORY
THAT'S BEING PIONEERED
BY A BRITISH BUSINESSMAN NAMED
WYNFORD DORE.
HE'S A MULTI-MILLIONAIRE WHO
MADE HIS FORTUNE NOT IN THE
MEDICAL PROFESSION, BUT BY
DEVELOPING FIRE RETARDANT PAINT.
>> Dore: I WAS NEVER A PAINT
EXPERT, BUT WE CREATED THE BEST
FIRE PROTECTION PAINT IN THE
WORLD.
I'M NOT AN EDUCATIONALIST, BUT I
HAVE GOT SOME WONDERFUL
EDUCATIONALISTS AND WONDERFUL
MEDICAL RESEARCHERS WORKING WITH
ME.
ALL I AM IS SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES
THAT THERE IS A SOLUTION, AND
WILL DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER
TO FIND THAT SOLUTION TO THIS
MASSIVE PROBLEM.
>> Amanpour: WYNFORD DORE WAS
MOTIVATED BY HIS OWN PERSONAL
TRAGEDY.
HIS DAUGHTER SUZIE, WHO GOT
MARRIED THIS SUMMER, HAS
DYSLEXIA, AND HE BLAMES IT FOR
HER REPEATED ATTEMPTS TO COMMIT
SUICIDE.
SHORT OF ANY CURE, WYNFORD DORE
SET OUT TO FIND ONE HIMSELF.
SO FOUR YEARS AGO, HE STARTED
POURING HIS OWN MONEY INTO
RESEARCH, AND HIS TEAM OF
SCIENTISTS CAME TO SOME
CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HOW TO FIX A
DYSLEXIC BRAIN.
THE RESULT: EXERCISE REGIMENS
AND CLINCS THAT WYNFORD DORE
STARTED OPENING ACROSS BRITAIN.
EXERCISES YOU THINK ARE THE KEY
TO UNLOCKING DYSLEXIA.
>> Dore: EXERCISES ARE THE KEY
TO DEVELOPING THE CEREBELLUM IN
THE WAY IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN
DEVELOPED, WHICH IN TURN MEANS
THAT THE SYMPTOMS OF DYSLEXIA
SUBSIDE OR GO AWAY.
>> NEUROPATH WAYS HAVE BEEN
DOCTOR
>> Amanpour: TODAY WYNFORD DORE
SELLS HIS EXERCISE REGIME FOR
AROUND $3,000 PER PATIENT.
HE CALLS THE TREATMENT
REVOLUTIONARY, BUT EXERCISES TO
TREAT DYSLEXIA IS NOT NEW.
IN FACT, SIMILAR BALANCE
TRAINING EXERCISES WERE
INTRODUCED BY ONE AMERICAN
RESEARCHER OVER 30 YEARS AGO.
WHAT MAKES YOUR EXERCISES
DIFFERENT FROM THOSE THAT HAVE
EXISTED ALREADY?
>> Dore: THE EXERCISE PROGRAMS
THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR MANY
YEARS HAVE BEEN IN THE RIGHT
AREA, BUT THEY WEREN'T TO KNOW
WHAT WAS GOING TO COME OUT IN
THE SCIENCE IN THE LAST FEW
YEARS.
THINGS HAVE MOVED ON, AND WE'VE
TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THAT AND COME
UP WITH A PROGRAM THAT IS
REVOLUTIONARY IN THE EXTENT OF
THE RESULTS WE'RE GETTING.
>> Amanpour: WHAT'S DIFFERENT IS
>> Reporter: PARTWAY INTO THE
TREATMENT OF THE TWO PEOPLE WE
CHOSE TO FOLLOW THE RESULTS WERE
DECIDEDLY MIXED.
MARTIN LONG, AFTER TWO MONTHS OF
THE EXERCISE PROGRAM, TOLD US
THAT HE DIDN'T SEE MUCH
IMPROVEMENT AT ALL.
>> Long: IT SOUNDS REALLY
STRANGE, BUT I SEEM TO BE MORE
DYSLEXIC.
I SEEM TO BE HAVING TROUBLE WITH
MY WORDS, GETTING SPELLINGS
WRONG MORE FREQUENT.
BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S
BECAUSE I'M ABLE TO RECOGNIZE IT
MORE.
>> Amanpour: A FEW MONTHS LATER,
WE MET UP WITH CHLOE ROBERTS,
HAVING A CHECKUP AT ONE OF
WYNFORD DORE'S CLINICS.
SHE SAID SHE WAS DOING BETTER.
>> Roberts: MY SCHOOLWORK IS
EASIER, YEAH.
>> Amanpour: WHICH BITS?
>> Roberts: READING AND
REMEMBERING THINGS.
>> Amanpour: THAT MAY NOT SOUND
VERY SCIENTIFIC, BUT STORIES
LIKE THAT LEAD WYNFORD DORE TO
CLAIM A HIGH SUCCESS RATE AMONG
HIS 12,000 OR SO PATIENTS IN
BRITAIN.
>> Receptionist: THANK YOU FOR
CALLING D.D.A.T. CENTRE.
CATHY SPEAKING.
HOW MAY I HELP?
>> Amanpour: AND NOW HE'S
STARTED OPENING CLINICS IN
AUSTRALIA AND THE UNITED STATES.
IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A CURE?
>> Dore: THE TERM "CURE" IS
NORMALLY USED WHEN SOMETHING HAS
PROVEN THAT AFTER FIVE YEARS,
THERE'S NO SIGN OF REGRESSION.
WE'RE THREE-AND-A-QUARTER YEARS
INTO THIS, AND THERE IS NO SIGN
OF REGRESSION.
SO IN A COUPLE OF YEARS' TIME, I
PREDICT THAT WE WILL BE SAYING
THIS IS THE CURE.
>> Amanpour: IT'S A BOLD CLAIM
THAT NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES,
PARTICULARLY IN THE DYSLEXIA
ESTABLISHMENT.
SO WYNFORD DORE SET OUT TO GET
SOME PROOF.
LAST YEAR HE FUNDED A STUDY AT
THIS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN
WARWICKSHIRE, ENGLAND.
IT LASTED SIX MONTHS AND
INVOLVED 35 CHILDREN WITH
VARYING DEGREES OF DYSLEXIA.
IT'S THE ONLY STUDY THAT'S EVER
BEEN CARRIED OUT.
THE RESULTS WERE PUBLISHED IN
THE ACADEMIC JOURNAL "DYSLEXIA."
THE STUDY CLAIMED THAT THE
CHILDREN'S READING FLUENCY HAD
SHOWN A HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT
IMPROVEMENT, AND CONCLUDED THAT
THE RESULTS DO SUGGEST THAT THE
EXERCISE TREATMENT WAS EFFECTIVE
IN IMPROVING LITERACY
PERFORMANCE.
BUT THE STUDY WAS ROUNDLY
CRITICIZED BY THE DYSLEXIA
ESTABLISHMENT.
PEOPLE LIKE SHIRLEY CRAMER, THE
HEAD OF BRTAIN'S DYSLEXIA
INSTITUTE, SAID THE STUDY WAS
TOO SMALL AND ITS METHODS
FLAWED.
>> Cramer: IT'S CLEAR THAT SOME
OF THE CLAIMS ARE JUST
OVERBLOWN, THAT THAT'S REALLY
THE GUTS OF IT.
I THINK THAT THERE MAY BE
SOMETHING IN IT, BUT THE CLAIMS
THAT ARE MADE FOR IT ARE RATHER
PERHAPS EXAGGERATED.
>> Amanpour: SO TELL ME WHAT YOU
MEAN?
>> Cramer: IT'S THE CLAIMS OF
CURING DYSLEXIA.
IT'S THE CLAIMS OF REVOLUTIONARY
THAT, I THINK, REALLY DON'T
STACK UP.
>> Amanpour: YOU'RE NOT
DISMISSING IT OUT OF HAND?
DOES IT DESERVE FURTHER
INVESTIGATION?
>> Cramer: I THINK IT DESERVES
FURTHER INVESTIGATION, AND I
THINK IT WILL HAVE A PLACE IN
THE INTERVENTION THAT THERE ARE
FOR DYSLEXICS.
>> Amanpour: UP TO NOW,
BRITAIN'S DYSLEXIA INSTITUTE,
LIKE ALL TRADITIONAL
ESTABLISHMENTS, HAS BEEN TRYING
TO FIGHT DYSLEXIA THROUGH
INTENSIVE TEACHING CALLED A
MULTI-SENSORY APPROACH.
A CHILD LOOKS AT A WORD, LISTENS
TO HOW IT SOUNDS, REPEATS THAT
WORD, THEN WRITES IT DOWN.
CRAMER BELIEVES AT BEST THE
EFFECTS OF DYSLEXIA CAN ONLY BE
ALLEVIATED, NOT CURED, AND
WYNFORD DORE'S CLAIM OF A CURE
WORRIES HER.
>> Cramer: NOW, IF SOMEBODY
TELLS YOU THERE'S GOING TO BE A
MIRACLE CURE, WELL, OF COURSE AS
ANY PARENT WOULD, YOU'RE GOING
TO RUN FOR THAT.
BUT WHAT YOU REALLY NEED TO KNOW
IS, WELL, YES, IT MIGHT HELP MY
CHILD, BUT IT ISN'T THE WHOLE
STORY.
>> Amanpour: AFTER NINE MONTHS
OF TREATMENT, WE CHECKED IN
AGAIN WITH CHLOE AND MARTIN.
THERE'S NO SCIENCE TO HOW WE
CHOSE THEM.
WE SIMPLY PICKED THEM AT RANDOM
FROM WYNFORD DORE'S PROGRAM.
CHLOE ROBERTS TOLD US SHE'S
ENJOYING HERSELF MORE, AND EVEN
THOUGH HER PARENTS TOLD US THEY
DON'T THINK SHE'S BEEN CURED,
THEY'RE HAPPY THAT SHE IS
READING AND WRITING BETTER, AND
THAT SHE'S MUCH MORE CONFIDENT.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S BECAUSE OF
THE EXERCISES THAT YOU'VE BEEN
DOING?
>> Roberts: YES, I THINK IT IS,
BECAUSE I WASN'T IMPROVING AT
ALL BEFORE I DID THE EXERCISES,
AND NOW I AM.
SO I THINK IT IS.
>> Amanpour: MARTIN LONG TOLD US
THINGS HAVE GOT MUCH BETTER FOR
HIM, TOO.
HE'S SEEN POSITIVE RESULTS.
DO YOU THINK THESE EXERCISES
HAVE DONE FOR YOU WHAT YOU
HOPED?
>> Long: YES.
>> Amanpour: BETTER THAN ALL THE
OTHER THINGS YOU DID?
>> Long: YES.
I'M NOT THERE YET, BUT I CAN SEE
I CAN GET THERE.
>> Amanpour: LAST DECEMBER WE
ASKED YOU TO READ A PASSAGE, AND
I'M WONDERING IF YOU COULD READ
THE SAME PASSAGE AGAIN FOR US.
IT'S MARKED THERE.
>> Long: OKAY.
"IT WAS A 17-JEWEL ELGIN IN A
LOCKET STYLE CASE, AND MY MOTHER
BOUGHT IT BEFORE SHE WAS MARRIED
IN SEPTEMBER.
IT WAS A TYPICAL WATCH OF THE
ERA, FUNCTIONAL YET DECORATIVE,
A PRIZE PIECE OF JEWELRY FOR A
WOMAN OF THAT TIME."
>> Amanpour: IT'S INCREDIBLE.
IT'S SUCH A CHANGE.
>> Long: YEAH.
>> Amanpour: DO YOU FEEL GOOD
ABOUT IT?
>> Long: I DO, AND I THINK ALSO
IT'S BEING ABLE TO ABSORB IT AS
WELL IS GREAT.
NO, IN FACT, IT'S BEING ABLE TO
ENJOY IT.
>> Simon: ONE OF THE BITS OF
GOOD NEWS OUT OF IRAQ IS THAT
THE SHIITES, THE MUSLIM SECT
THAT MAKES UP THE MAJORITY OF
THE COUNTRY, HAVE BEEN, FOR THE
MOST PART, IN FAVOR OF THE U.S.-
LED INVASION.
BUT THERE ARE SIGNS THAT MAY BE
CHANGING.
TWO AMERICAN SOLDIERS WERE
KILLED RECENTLY IN A GUN BATTLE
WITH AN ARMED SHIITE MOB, AND
THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL BOMBINGS
IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS THAT, U.S.
FORCES SAY, MAY HAVE BEEN
CARRIED OUT BY SHIITES.
TONIGHT YOU'LL MEET THE YOUNG
CLERIC WHO IS BELIEVED TO BE
BEHIND SO MUCH OF THE TROUBLE.
BUT FIRST, YOU'LL HEAR FROM ONE
OF AMERICA'S BIGGEST FANS AMONG
THE SHIITES, AND HIS NAME MIGHT
SURPRISE YOU.
IT'S KHOMEINI, AS IN THE
AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI, WHO DESPISED
THE AMERICANS.
NOW LISTEN TO WHAT THIS YOUNG
KHOMEINI HAS TO SAY ABOUT
AMERICA.
>> Hussein Khomeini: FREEDOM IS
THE ESSENTIAL ELEMENT AND
FOUNDATION OF OUR RELIGION, AND
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
STANDS FOR FREEDOM.
>> Simon: THIS FROM A MAN WHO
WALKED RIGHT BEHIND THE
AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI WHEN HE SAT
DOWN FOR A "60 MINUTES"
INTERVIEW SO MANY YEARS AGO.
MR. HUSSEIN KHOMEINI IS THE LATE
AYATOLLAH'S ELDEST GRANDSON, AND
THEREFORE HEIR TO THE KHOMEINI
NAME.
YOUR GRANDFATHER, THE LATE
AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI, WAS NOT VERY
FOND OF AMERICANS.
IN FACT, HE CALLED AMERICA, I AM
SURE YOU REMEMBER, THE GREAT
SATAN.
WHY HAVE YOU COME FORWARD NOW AT
THIS TIME TO SPEAK TO AMERICANS?
>> Khomeini:(
translated
):
BECAUSE THOSE WHO PROMOTE THIS
RADICAL FORM OF ISLAM HAVE
STRAYED FROM TRUE ISLAM, AND
THEY'VE HAVE CREATED THE
FOUNDATIONS OF PREJUDICE AND
RELIGIOUS BLINDNESS.
>> Simon: WHICH IS WHY THE YOUNG
MR. KHOMEINI DECIDED THIS SUMMER
TO LEAVE HIS HOME IN IRAN AND
FLEE HERE, TO IRAQ, WHERE HE
HOPES MORE MODERATE SHIITES WILL
TAKE CHARGE UNDER THE U.S.-LED
OCCUPATION.
YOU THINK THE AMERICAN INVASION
OF IRAQ WAS A GOOD IDEA?
>> Khomeini:(
translated
) IT'S
CERTAINLY MADE THE IRAQI PEOPLE
HAPPY.
THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS REGIME
WAS ONE OF THE GREAT BLESSINGS
OF OUR TIME, AND WE HOPE THAT
GOD WOULD BE GRATEFUL TO THOSE
WHO MADE IT HAPPEN.
>> Simon: BUT THOSE WHO MADE IT
HAPPEN-- NAMELY THE AMERICANS--
HAVE HAD A ROUGH TIME WITH THE
SHIITES IN THE PAST FEW DECADES.
THERE WAS THE IRANIAN HOSTAGE
CRISIS UNDER THE AYATOLLAH
KHOMEINI IN 1979, IN WHICH 52
AMERICANS WERE HELD FOR MORE
THAN A YEAR.
AND OVER THE NEXT DECADE, SHIITE
MILITANTS CARRIED OUT SUICIDE
ATTACKS AGAINST AMERICAN TARGETS
THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, AT
ONE POINT KILLING 241 AMERICAN
SERVICEMEN STATIONED IN BEIRUT.
BUT MR. KHOMEINI SAYS EVEN THE
AYATOLLAH WOULD H DISAPPOINTED
WITH WHAT HAS BECOME OF MUSLIM
FUNDAMENTALISM TODAY.
YOU HAVE SAID, SIR, THAT THE
HARD-LINERS ARE EXPLOITING THE
NAME OF YOUR GRANDFATHER.
>> Khomeini (
translated
): THIS
RELIGION-DOMINATED, THEOCRATIC
GOVERNMENT IN IRAN HAS ACTED
VERY HARSHLY, HAS GONE BEYOND
THE WORST EXTREMISM.
AND FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF
ISLAM, WE REJECT THIS FORM OF
THEOCRACY.
>> Simon: ARE YOU OPPOSED TO A
THEOCRACY?
>> Khomeini: YES, EVERYWHERE,
EVERYWHERE.
>> Simon: THE AYATOLLAHS SHOULD
BE IN THE MOSQUES AND THE
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE IN POWER?
JUST LIKE THAT?
>> Khomeini (
translated
): YES.
>> Simon: THE CITY OF NAJAF,
AROUND 100 MILES SOUTH OF
BAGHDAD, IS A SORT OF VATICAN
CITY TO SHIITE MUSLIMS, AND HAS
BEEN FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.
AND WHILE MOST OF THE SENIOR
SHIITE CLERICS IN IRAQ SAY THEY
AGREE WITH MR. KHOMEINI'S VIEW
ON THE SEPARATION OF MOSQUE AND
STATE, ON THE STREETS IT'S A
DIFFERENT STORY.
LIQUOR STORES HAVE BEEN
ATTACKED, AND MORE AND MORE
WOMEN ARE WEARING THE VEIL.
THAT'S IN NO SMALL PART BECAUSE
OF A YOUNG SHIITE CLERIC NAMED
SAYED MUQTADA AL-SADR, WHOSE
LINEAGE IS AS IMPRESSIVE AS MR.
KHOMEINI'S.
HIS FATHER WAS THE GRAND
AYATOLLAH OF IRAQ, AND YOU SEE
HIS PICTURE PLASTERED EVERYWHERE
HERE ALONGSIDE THAT OF THE
AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI.
AND NOW THE SON PREACHES THAT
WHILE SADDAM, WHO MURDERED HIS
FATHER FOUR YEARS AGO, MAY BE A
SNAKE, SO IS AMERICA.
>> Sadr: (
translated
): THE
LITTLE SERPENT HAS LEFT, AND THE
GREAT SERPENT HAS COME.
>> Simon: THE BIG SERPENT WAS
SADDAM HUSSEIN, AND THE
AMERICANS ARE THE SMALL
SERPENTS?
>> Sadr: (
translated
): IT IS
THE OPPOSITE, MY FRIEND.
>> Simon: THE AMERICANS ARE THE
BIG SERPENTS.
THE AMERICANS GOT RID OF YOUR
ENEMY, SADDAM HUSSEIN.
ISN'T THE ENEMY OF YOUR ENEMY
YOUR FRIEND?
>> Sadr: (
translated
): JUST
BECAUSE WE'RE RID OF SADDAM AND
THE EVIL BATTHISTS DOESN'T MEAN
THAT THE OCCUPATION IS A GOOD
THING.
OUR SALVATION FROM SADDAM WAS
ONLY WITH THE GRACE OF GOD.
>> Simon: IF GETTING RID OF
SADDAM WAS A FAVOR OF GOD, WHY
WAS IT THAT GOD WAITED UNTIL THE
AMERICANS CAME IN TO DO THE JOB?
>> Sadr: (
translated
): ALL
PRAISES TO ALLAH.
HE WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS.
>> Simon: IT'S THAT SORT OF
RADICAL SENTIMENT THAT HAS
CAUGHT MANY AMERICANS HERE OFF
GUARD.
LIEUTENANT COLONEL CHRIS
CONLIN'S MARINES HAVE BEEN IN
CHARGE OF NAJAF SINCE THE
OCCUPATION BEGAN.
WE HAD A CHAT THIS MORNING WITH
A YOUNG CLERIC NAMED SAYED
MUQTADA AL-SADR.
>> Conlin: SURE.
>> Simon: HE HAS BEEN DENOUNCING
THE AMERICAN OCCUPATION.
>> Conlin: HIS OPPORTUNITY TO
DEMONSTRATE FREE SPEECH IS
BECAUSE OF MY MARINES BEING
HERE.
>> Simon: HE DOESN'T ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT, OF COURSE.
>> Conlin: WELL, EVERYBODY HAS
GOT HIS OWN OPINION.
>> Simon: AND MR. SADR'S
FOLLOWERS MADE THEIR OPINIONS
KNOWN THIS PAST SUMMER, WHEN
RUMOR SPREAD THAT MARINES IN
NAJAF HAD ARRESTED THEIR LEADER.
THOUSANDS OF ANGRY SHIITES
MARCHED ON THE BASE.
>> Conlin: THAT WAS ACTUALLY A
PROTEST THAT WAS ORGANIZED BY
SADR UNDER THE FALSE ACCUSATION
THAT WE HAD ARRESTED HIM, AND WE
HADN'T.
SO HE BUSSED IN PEOPLE FROM
BAGHDAD AND FALLUJAH AND MOSUL
AND TIKRIT AND FOMENTED AN ANGRY
CROWD, AND TRIED, I THINK, TO DO
A LITTLE BIT OF INTIMIDATION
TACTICS.
AND SO WE DID, TOO.
WE'RE BETTER AT IT.
>> Simon: COLONEL CONLIN'S
MARINES STOOD DOWN THE ANGRY MOB
WITH BAYONETS.
NO BLOODSHED, NO BULLETS.
NOW, THERE WAS AN INCIDENT,
WASN'T THERE, WHERE YOU GUYS HAD
TO FIX YOUR BAYONETS?
>> Marine #1: THE CROWD STARTED
GETTING A BIT ROWDY, STARTED
PUSHING AND SHOVING.
AND THE MARINES FIXED BAYONETS
IN ORDER TO JUST BASICALLY SHOW
THE PEOPLE THAT WE WERE THERE TO
PREVENT ANYTHING BAD FROM
HAPPENING.
>> Simon: BEFORE YOU GUYS CAME
HERE, DID YOU GET ANY BRIEFINGS
ON THE SHIITES?
>> Marine #2: WELL, WE WERE TOLD
THIS WAS GOING TO BE, LIKE, ONE
OF THE HARDEST CITIES TO PACIFY
BECAUSE OF THE RELIGIOUS
DIFFERENCES, AND THEM NOT LIKING
AMERICANS.
>> Simon: BUT WHILE AN AMERICAN
SOLDIER IS KILLED NEARLY EVERY
DAY IN IRAQ, VERY LITTLE OF THE
VIOLENCE HAS COME FROM THE
SHIITES.
BUT THAT COULD ALL CHANGE,
ACCORDING THESE CLERICS, WHO SAY
MANY IRAQI SHIITES ARE JUST
WAITING FOR A FATWA, A RELIGIOUS
EDICT, TO TAKE UP ARMS.
DO YOU THINK MANY PEOPLE HERE,
SAYED, MANY PEOPLE ARE WORRIED
THAT YOU MIGHT ISSUE A FATWA
AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.
ARE YOU PLANNING TO DO SO, SIR?
>> Sadr: (
translated
): I
CANNOT ISSUE A FATWA.
I DON'T HAVE THE RELIGIOUS
AUTHORITY.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S INSIDE THE
RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY'S HEART.
ONLY GOD KNOWS.
HE MIGHT ISSUE A FATWA FOR JIHAD
OR HE MAY NOT ISSUE A FATWA FOR
JIHAD.
>> Simon: WOULD YOU APPROVE OF A
FATWAH ISSUED AGAINST THE
AMERICANS?
>> Sadr: (
translated
): I HAVE
TO OBEY THIS ORDER WHATEVER IT
MIGHT BE.
WHEN THE PRESIDENT OF AMERICA
DECIDES TO INVADE A COUNTRY,
SHOULDN'T PEOPLE FOLLOW HIS
ORDERS?
IT IS THE SAME FOR US.
>> Conlin: I THINK HE HAS SOME
PEOPLE THAT ARE TRYING TO CREATE
AN ISLAMIC EXTREMIST GOVERNMENT,
VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT IRAN HAS.
>> Simon: DO YOU THINK THEY'VE
GOT A CHANCE?
>> Conlin: NO.
THEY ALREADY WENT THROUGH ONE
DICTATOR.
THEY DON'T NEED ANOTHER ONE.
>> Simon: IRAQI SHIITES TRIED
ONCE BEFORE TO GET RID OF THEIR
DICTATOR.
IT WAS DURING THE FIRST GULF
WAR, WHEN THE FIRST PRESIDENT
BUSH SENT A CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE
SHIITES.
>> Bush: AND THAT IS FOR THE
IRAQI PEOPLE TO TAKE MATTERS
INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND FORCE
SADDAM HUSSEIN, THE DICTATOR, TO
STEP ASIDE.
>> Simon: BUT WHEN THE IRAQI
SHIITES LISTENED AND REVOLTED,
THE AMERICAN AIR COVER THEY
EXPECTED NEVER CAME.
AND THE U.S. LET SADDAM USE HIS
HELICOPTER GUN SHIPS TO CRUSH
THE REBELLION.
SHIITES WERE KILLED BY THE
THOUSANDS.
THE MASS GRAVES ARE ONLY NOW
BEING UNEARTHED.
>> Conlin: IT'S IMPORTANT TO
UNDERSTAND THAT ULTIMATELY THEY
BLAME SADDAM FOR IT BECAUSE
SADDAM WAS THE ONE THAT CAME IN
AND KILLED THEIR PEOPLE.
>> Simon: BUT THE AMERICANS LET
HIM.
>> Conlin: WELL, THE AMERICANS
DIDN'T COME IN WHEN THEY THOUGHT
WE WERE GOING TO COME IN.
>> Simon: DID YOU HAVE ANY
PROBLEMS WITH THIS RESENTMENT?
>> Conlin: THEY REMINDED US OF
IT.
>> Simon: MR. SADR REMINDS HIS
FOLLOWERS EVERY CHANCE HE GETS,
AND HE SAYS THE FIRST BUSH
ADMINISTRATION FEARED THAT, IF
THE '91 UPRISING HAD WORKED TO
UNSEAT SADDAM, IRAQ WOULD LOOK A
LOT LIKE IRAN: A SHIITE
THEOCRACY, WHICH IS HIS DREAM,
AND AMERICA'S NIGHTMARE.
>> Sadr: (
translated
): THE
AMERICANS WERE NEVER INTERESTED
IN WHAT WAS BEST FOR THE
SHIITES.
IN FACT, AMERICA WOULDN'T LET A
SHIITE GOVERNMENT EXIST HERE,
EXCEPT UNDER ITS OCCUPATION, MY
FRIEND, BECAUSE OF THAT FEAR.
IT IS AMERICA WHO IS AFRAID OF
THE SHIITES, NOT THE SHIITES WHO
ARE AFRAID OF AMERICA.
>> Simon: AND NOW THAT SADDAM IS
GONE, IT IS ONLY THE AMERICANS
WHO ARE STANDING BETWEEN THE
SHIITES AND CONTROL OF THE
COUNTRY, WHICH MAY BE WHY
SHIITES ARE FIGHTING AMONGST
THEMSELVES ABOUT HOW THANKFUL
THEY REALLY ARE TO THE
AMERICANS.
SHIITE MILITANTS MAY HAVE BEEN
BEHIND A CAR BOMBING AT THE
NAJAF MOSQUE JUST A WEEK AFTER
OUR VISIT THERE, WHICH TARGETED
AND KILLED A REVERED AYATOLLAH
WHO SUPPORTED THE U.S. INVASION.
AND BACK IN APRIL, THE AYATOLLAH
AL-KHOEI, WHO WAS ALSO AMERICA-
FRIENDLY, RETURNED FROM EXILE IN
ENGLAND, ONLY TO BE HACKED TO
DEATH BY A SHIITE MOB DAYS
LATER.
ONE OF THE SUSPECTS: MUQTADA AL-
SADR.
>> Sadr: (
translated
): I
CONDEMNED THIS DURING MY FRIDAY
SERMON, BUT I DID SAY WE MAY
HAVE ACTED IN A WAY THAT LEAD TO
THIS INCIDENT, UNFORTUNATELY.
>> Simon: TWO OF YOUR GUARDS
WERE ARRESTED FOR INVOLVEMENT IN
THE MURDER.
>> Sadr: (
translated
): JUST
BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF SHIITES
FOLLOW ME DOESN'T MEAN I'M
RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY ONE OF
THEIR ACTIONS.
>> Simon: WELL, THE MAJORITY OF
SHIITES IN IRAQ DON'T ACTUALLY
FOLLOW HIM, BUT THERE CERTAINLY
ARE PARTS IN IRAQ WHERE HIS WORD
IS GOSPEL.
IF YOU'RE WONDERING HOW MUCH HAS
CHANGED IN IRAQ IN THE LAST FEW
MONTHS, LOOK NO FURTHER THAN
THIS BAGHDAD SLUM, WHICH USED TO
BE CALLED SADDAM CITY.
ONCE SADDAM FELL, THE THREE
MILLION SHIITES WHO LIVE HERE
RENAMED THE PLACE SADR CITY,
AFTER MR. SADR'S REVERED AND
RADICAL FATHER.
JUST THREE DAYS AFTER ONE OF MR.
SADR'S CLERICS WAS ARRESTED, A
CAR BOMB WENT OFF AT THE SADR
CITY POLICE STATION, KILLING TEN
PEOPLE.
THAT SAME DAY, U.S. FORCES SAY
THEY WERE AMBUSHED BY AN ARMED
MOB OF SHIITES.
TWO AMERICAN SOLDIERS WERE
KILLED, AND THERE WERE SEVERAL
SHIITE CASUALTIES.
EVEN ONE OF AMERICA'S BIGGEST
SHIITE FANS ADMITS MAY BE ONLY
THE BEGINNING.
>> Khomeini:(
translated
):
LOOK, THE ENEMIES OF FREEDOM
WILL NOT LET FREEDOM, LIBERTY,
AND DEMOCRACY BE ESTABLISHED IN
IRAQ.
YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THAT THEIR
HOSTILITIES WILL BECOME MORE
INTENSIVE EVERY DAY.
>> Simon: ARE YOU SUGGESTING,
SIR, THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
HAVE TO GET USED TO THE IDEA
THAT A LOT OF AMERICANS ARE
GOING TO GET KILLED IN IRAQ?
>> Khomeini: (
translated
):
WELL, DIDN'T AMERICA SUFFER
CASUALTIES IN WORLD WAR I AND
WORLD WAR II?
IT SUFFERED MANY, MANY MORE
CASUALTIES IN THOSE WARS.
AND THE RESULT AND THE LEGACY OF
THIS WAR IN IRAQ, THAT WILL BE
EVEN MORE IMPORTANT.
>> Simon: COALITION OFFICIALS
HAVE TOLD US THEY NOW THINK MR.
SADR'S FOLLOWERS MAY HAVE BEEN
BEHIND THE BOMBING OF THE
BAGHDAD HOTEL LAST WEEK IN WHICH
SIX IRAQIS WERE KILLED AND 36
INJURED.
U.S. OFFICIALS ACKNOWLEDGE,
HOWEVER, THAT ARRESTING MR. SADR
COULD LEAD, IN THEIR UNDERSTATED
WORDS, TO HUGE UNREST.
YOU KNOW, WE SING
FOR MILLIONS OF GIRLS.
BUT HELPING OUT IN SCHOOLS,
THAT'S THE REAL DEAL, BABY.
I KNOW OUR LOVE CAN MULTIPLY
'CAUSE YOU'RE THE X
AND I'M THE Y
I'M THE CUTE ONE,
YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYIN'?
SO, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN
BACKSTAGE BEFORE?
OK, GUYS,
THIS IS AN ABACUS.
IT'S AN OLD SCHOOL CALCULATOR.
ONE...TWO...THREE...FOUR...
LIKE THE CIRCLE
AND THE SQUARE
OUR GEOMETRY
IS A PERFECT PAIR
Interviewer:
NOW WHY SHOULD KIDS
KNOW ABOUT GRAVITY?
WELL, GRAVITY
HOLDS THEM DOWN.
I ONCE WAS ONE,
BUT NOW WE'RE TWO
STOP. I'M SPINNING
OUT OF CONTROL.
WANNA SWEAR MY LOVE TO YOU
All: AWW.
>> Rather: NOW, A FEW MINUTES
>> Rather: LAWYERS WITH AND
APPETITE FOR LAWSUITS ARE GOING
ON A FEEDING FRENZY.
>> Reporter: A CALIFORNIA
ATTORNEY RECENTLY SUED OREOS,
ASKING THE COURT TO BAN THEIR
SALE TO MINORS, PUTTING OREOS IN
THE SAME CATEGORY AS CIGARETTES
AND BEER, AND RAISING THE
SPECTER OF 7-11 CLERKS CARDING
KIDS TRYING TO BUY COOKIES.
THE LAWSUIT STATES THAT
MARKETING AND SELLING OREO
COOKIES TO CHILDREN IS
"MALICIOUS, DECEPT, E,
FRAUDULENT, OPPRESSIVE, UNFAIR,
UNSCRUPULOUS, UNCONSCIONABLE,
UNLAWFUL, AND RECKLESSLY
DISREGARDS CHILDREN'S RIGHTS."
THE PROBLEM?
LIKE HUNDREDS OF OTHER THINGS WE
EAT, OREOS CONTAIN TRANSFAT,
WHICH MAY VERY WELL BE BAD FOR
US.
WHAT?
WE THOUGHT OREOS WERE HEALTH
FOOD?
FOR THE RECORD, I WOULD LIKE TO
SAY SOMETHING UNDER OATH AS A
ARACTER WITNESS ON BEHALF OF
OREOS, AN AMERICAN INSTITUTION
SINCE 1912.
OREOS ARE NOT BAD.
THEY'RE GOOD.
DOUBLE STUFFED?
EVEN BETTER.
I LIKE TO TWIST TH@M APART AND
EAT THE PLAIN PA
FIRST, AND
THE PART WITH THE CREAM FILLINM
FOR DESSERT.
SUING FOOD FOR MAKING US FAT
SOUNDS CRAZY, BUT IT SCARED THE
MAKER OF OREOS INTO ANNOUNCING
THEY MIGHT DOWNSIZE OREOS AND
WILL TRY TO REMOVE THE DEMON
TRANSFAT, PUTTING AN END TO
OREOS AS WE KNOW THEM.
IN THE SAME VEIN, McDONALDS
RECENTLY INTRODUCED A NEW LINE
OF SALADS AFTER TWO YOUNG WOMEN
SUED THE HAMBURGER CHAIN FOR
MAKING THEM FAT.
WE SUE OVER EVERYTHING THESE
DAYS.
A WOMAN TRIPS OVER HER SHOELACE
AND SUES NIKE FOR $10 MILLION.
A BANK ROBBER SUES, SAYING
PROZAC MADE HIM DO IT.
A MAN SUES A CASINO BECAUSE HE
LOST MONEY.
WHO KNEW YOU COULD LOSE MONEY
GAMBLING?
WITH FOOD, I SAY PUT THE FAT
MAYBE THEY SHOULD PUT WARNING
LABOR YELDZ ON FAT MACHINES.
WITH FOOD, I SAY PUT THE FAT
CONTENT ON THE PACKAGE AND STAND
BACK.
AMERICANS ARE COMING TO GET IT:
OREOS, BIG MACS, KRISPY KREME
DOUGHNUTS.
IF IT TASTES GOOD, WE WANT IT.
WE DO LOTS OF THINGS WE KNOW MAY
BE BAD FOR US.
IT'S CALLED LIVING.
DOING ANYTHING CAN BE A HEALTH
HAZARD.
DOING NOTHING IS, TOO.
THE SIMPLE PASSAGE OF TIME,
GETTING OLDER, IS REALLY BAD FOR
YOU.
WHO DO YOU SUE?
TIMEX?
>> Rather: I'M DAN RATHER.
WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH
ANOTHER EDITION OF "60 MINUTES
II."
NOW, HERE'S WHAT ELSE IS COMING
UP FROM CBS NEWS.
Captioning sponsored by THE
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
and CBS
Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org
D CONVICTED, THE
LEAKERS COULD GET 10 YEARS IN
PRISON.
BUT THE POLITICAL FALLOUT COULD
BE MUCH WORSE FOR THE WHITE
HOUSE, WHOSE CREDIBILITY ON IRAQ
IS ALREADY ON THE LINE.
JIM MIKLASZEWSKI, NBC NEWS,
WASHINGTON.