Pre-Incarnate Christ

[엘리야후]

We clearly see Christ as the Creator, but then we have this:

Matthew 11:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Here is where we see that Christ shows us the Father, but mortal man could not come and stand before the Father. even with Moses He was veiled with the cloud.

Exodus 34:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.
3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

So we see that the Lord Himself told Moses that man could not be before the awesome glory that is God. Moses had asked to see God's glory and we see what he was told in in Exodus 34 verse 20, "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.."

This awesome glory presented a problem. If men could not live after seeing Him then how could Christ interact with mankind and as the Bible says no man has ever seen God the Father. The Father is spirit. No one has ever seen His face. We first have the appearance of God walking in the garden in the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:8, but this was after sin so they would have died if they had come before God. But the fact is that God has been seen by men as we see Enoch and Noah both "walked with God". Then you have 'the Lord' appearing to Abraham in Genesis 18 as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and we know the many sins of Abraham, but yet he lived. So who have they seen?

So we have to see how scripture clues us in, and the answer was that God placed Himself in veiled form when He came to the people, and it was Jesus Christ in pre-incarnate appearances. Here we have the following:

Isaiah 6:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

We see in Isaiah 6, Isaiah goes to the Temple to mourn the death of his king, and when Isaiah goes there he suddenly sees the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lifted up high and glorious in the Temple as the angels cry 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory'. Then we have Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 1:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Ezekiel also saw that "upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man upon it.... This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD .Then, over in the New Testament, we are told that when Isaiah saw the Lord lifted up high and holy he saw Jesus Christ. John 12:41 tells us that what Isaiah saw was Jesus in "His glory", the glory He had before He became incarnate (Philippians 2:5-8).

Looking back at Abraham with the three men that visited him while he was at the tent door we find first, that the leader talked with Abraham. Then He inquired about Sarah and made a promise:

Genesis 18:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him
a promise to Abraham. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"

Later, in Genesis 21:1-2, we are told who the leader is.
"1 And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him."

The One who spoke with Abraham at the tent, was the Lord Himself. But, because of her old age, Sarah had doubted and laughed at the Lord's promise. The Lord makes a clear promise with a time line in Genesis 18 and fulfilled in Genesis 21, here is His promise.

Genesis 18:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

In Genesis 18:10, the central figure or leader of the men promised to return a year later. But, in verse 14, it makes it clear it is the Lord and He promised to return a year later. The leader and the Lord are one and he same. Now we have this.

Genesis 18:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;


Abraham was walking with the three men in the direction of Sodom when the leader (the Lord) spoke to him.

"Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord" (v.22).

There seems to be a problem. If the three men left for Sodom and the Lord remained with Abraham, is the Lord now appearing as a fourth person? Our answer is found in the first part of Genesis 19:1.
"Now the two angels came to Sodom"

If two angels went to Sodom, then the third angel (or man) remained with Abraham. The third angel was the pre-incarnate Son of God. Jesus did see Abraham as He declared in John 8:56-58.

Then in Genesis 32:24-32 we find Jacob wrestling with a man all night, but it is not just a man. The passage does not tell us directly, but Jacob records that he recognized who it was. Jacob told this man that he would not let him go until he blessed him. The man asked him what his name was and Jacob told him. The man then said in Genesis 32:28 "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed." This passage directly says that it was God that Jacob wrestled with all night.

The interesting part of the story is that Jacob clearly lets us know he recognized who he was wrestling with. He tells us in Genesis 32:30 that he saw God face to face, and yet his life was spared.

Genesis 32:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

#9Hobie, Yesterday at 5:03 PM

So it becomes clear this is the pre-incarnate Christ who has been dealing in these face to face encounters with man. We also read that Christ in pre-incarnate also appears as what is called "the Angel of the Lord." That doesn't mean that Jesus is an angel, rather it means He is God's angel. This term means Jesus is a messenger of the Lord as angel means "messenger." We have this:

Exodus 3:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

When Moses saw the burning bush, God spoke to him out of the burning bush and told him take his shoes off as that was holy ground. Verse 2 says, "And who spoke to him was the Angel of the Lord." Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words in verse 6:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

We also see, "the Angel of the Lord" who found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel, the Bible tells us.

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God", but lets go on. When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him.

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

Judges 6:22 records, "When Gideon realized that it was the Angel of the Lord he exclaimed, 'O sovereign Lord, I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face,' but the Lord said to him, 'Peace do not be afraid you are not going to die.'" Gideon saw God incarnate, Jesus as the Angel of the Lord.

We also see the Angel of the Lord as the pre-incarnate Son of God in Judges 13. It tells us that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Manoab's wife and promised her that she would conceive and give birth to a son. He gives the instructions for the son who is Samson, note what He says about the child being a Nazarite from the womb:

Judges 13:3-6 King James Version (KJV)
3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

The Angel of the Lord appeared a second time to Manoahâ's wife and she immediately called her husband:

Judges 13:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

Burnt offerings are to be presented to God only, and we see it was the Angel of the Lord. Then what Manoab asks and the answer given which is very interesting...:

Judges 13:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Then the Angel of the Lord performed the wonders as described in verse 19 and 20:

Judges 13:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

So Manoah and his wife fell on their faces in worship to Him, and we know only God can be worshipped, but now Manoah tells us who the Angel of the Lord who performed wonders is

Judges 13:21-22 King James Version (KJV)
21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

We also have the 'Son of God' appear and walk in the fiery furnace with Daniels three friends.

Daniel 3:23-25 King James Version (KJV)
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Then In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses:

Acts 7:37-38 King James Version (KJV)
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The Angel which spake is the One who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, whose name was "I Am." In the New Testament Christ identifies Himself as the great "I Am."
John 8:58 King James Version (KJV)
"58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

Exodus 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

Note what it has, 'And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Jesus Christ himself was telling the Jews that He was the angel in the burning bush speaking to Moses, and therefore was God. This the Jews understood, which is why they picked up rocks to stone him. It was the angel of the Lord within the burning bush who applied the title of I AM to himself, Christ applied the same title to himself.

This Angel of the Lord that appeared was the pre-incarnate Christ, and shown as the Lord. But Christ is clearly not a created angelic being. The divinity of Christ is clearly spelled out in Scriptures. Hebrew the first chapter clearly differentiates between Jesus and those supernatural beings called angels:

Hebrews 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

We need to see and hear what Gods Word unveils to us.

#10Hobie, Yesterday at 5:34 PM

37818 said: ↑

John 1:3 is regarding the Son/the Word, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." The Son is on behalf of the God is the cause of all acts of God being God. (John 5:19, ". . . Jesus . . . said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. . . ."

Jesus is the Creator, but He also is Jehovah, this is very hard to understand even for me, but here is a good explanation...
"What should we understand God's name, Jehovah, to mean? Strictly speaking, there is no such name as Jehovah. It occurred as a late medieval hybrid when students of the Hebrew Scriptures failed to understand that the Masoretic text had combined the vowels of Adonai, Lord, with the consonants YHWH (the divine name considered too sacred to pronounce). This name, considered today to have been originally pronounced Yahweh, is defined in Exodus 3:13, 14 as "I AM." By choosing this name, God identifies Himself as the Eternal, self-existing One—without beginning or end (see Ps. 90:2). Therefore, anyone without beginning or end would be entitled by the very nature of his being to the name of Jehovah.

What evidence can we gather from Scripture that Jesus is Jehovah equally with the Father?

One clue that will help you in your study of the name Jehovah (translated "Lord") is the manner in which it is printed in most English versions of the Old Testament. When the name "Lord" is translated from the Hebrew word Yahweh, i.e., Jehovah, it is printed in large and small capital letters like this: LORD. Other names of God that are translated "Lord" begin with a capital followed by lower-case letters. This contrast can be seen clearly in Isaiah 22:14 where the first occurrence (LORD) comes from Jehovah and the second (Lord) is from Adonai. Remember that this printer's clue is found only in the Old Testament. It is a good idea to check word derivations as well in a good comparative concordance such as Strong's or Young's.

Jesus is Jehovah
Notice, now, some comparisons of texts from the Old and New Testaments showing beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus is indeed identified as Jehovah. These will be given in outline form so that the comparison will be more vivid.

1. The precursor. "A voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God" (Isa. 40:3).*

"He [John the Baptist] said, 'I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Lord," as the prophet Isaiah said'" (John 1:23).

Certainly John knew the Hebrew of Isaiah's prophecy. When he claimed to be the "voice" of Isaiah's prediction, he was claiming to be preparing the way for Jehovah, who was in fact, Jesus.

2. Jehovah the Creator. "Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable" (Isa. 40:28).

"He [the Word, or Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not" (John 1:10).

The Creator of the world came into that world but was not accepted. If Jesus is not Jehovah, He is not the Creator. Further more, Isaiah calls the Creator the "ever lasting God." Jesus is the Eternal One, Jehovah.

3. The glory. " 'I am the LORD, that is my name; my. glory I give to no other, nor my praise to graven images'" (Isa. 42:8).

" 'And now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made'" (John 17:5).

As an obedient Son, would Jesus ask His Father for glory that Jehovah said He would never share? Or is Jesus entitled to that glory because He, too, is Jehovah— one with the Father?

4. The Rock. " 'For 1 will proclaim the name of the LORD. Ascribe greatness to our God! The Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are justice'" (Deut. 32:3, 4).

"For they [the fathers] drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10:4).

Jehovah is declared to be the Rock. Paul declares the Rock was Christ. Thus Christ must unquestionably be Jehovah.

5. The Shepherd. "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want" (Ps. 23:1).

'"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep'" (John 10:11).

Jehovah is the Shepherd, and Jesus applied this name to Himself in full knowledge of His own deity.

6. The First and the Last. "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god' " (Isa. 44:6).

" 'Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end'" (Rev. 22:12, 13; cf. 1:17, 18).

Jehovah says that He is the first and the last. The One who is coming quickly to give rewards (see Matt. 16:27) declares Himself to be the first and the last. The One who was dead and is now alive forevermore (see Rev. 1:17, 18) declares that He is the first and the last. There cannot be the slightest doubt that Jesus who died for us—the first and the last—is none other than Jehovah.

7. Jesus' absolute, eternal deity. "'I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God'" (Isa. 45:5). " 'You are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any'" (chap. 44:8).

"'I and the Father are one.' The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?' The Jews answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God'" (John 10:30- 33).

Jehovah categorically declares there is no God but Him. He denies the very teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses that Jehovah is the God, but that Jesus is a god.

When Jesus said that He and His Father are one, He made the greatest claim anyone could make. The Jews understood His claim. To their mind, there was only one God, and His name was Jehovah. Jesus clearly claimed to be that God, and they determined to stone Him.

8. The Saviour. " 'For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. ... I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior'" (Isa. 43:3-11).

"'There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved'" (Acts 4:12).

These texts declare that Jehovah alone is Saviour. If Jesus is not Jehovah, we have no Saviour. Note also that the Son of the virgin is given His name by an angel (see Matt. 1:21). The name Jesus means "Jehovah saves."

Isaiah becomes, therefore, a bulwark of trinitarianism. He is the great Messianic prophet, exalting the coming Messiah as Jehovah, not once or twice, but repeatedly. There is overwhelming evidence for the open mind that Jesus is Jehovah."...Is Jesus Jehovah God?

#11Hobie, Today at 6:11 AM

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/the-pre-incarnate-christ.116972/

[엘리야후]

성육신 이전에 말하자면 비공식적으로 이 세상에 오셔서 일하셨던 예수 그리스도라는 뜻입니다.

[엘리야후]

이 글은 제가 이미 알고 대부분 이 카페에서도 언급했던 내용들인데 간혹은 다른 각도에서 말하고 있기에 가져왔습니다. 이 사람 주장중에는 대천사 미카엘도 그리스도였다고 존 질이 말한 것을 인용하는 경우도 있습니다. 존 질이 훌륭한 그리스도인이지만 틀렸을 수 있습니다.
천사들 뿐만 아니라 천사장도, 피조물이며, 예수 그리스도는 천사장을 창조하신 창조주이십니다.