Changelog: 1.1: -Updated projectile fire delays using Darth's values and included his new descr_projectile.txt. His work always excellent! -Very slightly raised armored warhorse mass. -Tweaked ranges for archery and javelins depending on unit quality. -After further testing, I am leaving attack delays as they were in 1.0. -Increased costs for seige engines to reduce incidence of AI over-purchasing in campaign game. Costs unchanged in custom battles.
Medieval 2 Total War: RealCombat 1.1 - Combat by Design
Introduction I have frequently been less than satisfied with the quick and bloody combats in vanilla M2TW, and the often unrealistic results, particularly when it comes to the high casualties being dealt to heavily armored combatants by poorly equipped opponents. This was especially noticeable in the case of swords, light spears and most bow weapons, which were simply not designed or able to penetrate that level of protection.
We are also faced with the problem that the game system only currently allows us to upgrade one armor point per upgrade, since the more complex ‘stat_armor_ex’ system in the export_descr_units file was not implemented.
Armor System For the purposes of this mod then, I have implemented the following armor system:
Armor Level Description {LEVEL_0} None {LEVEL_1} Padded {LEVEL_2} Hardened Leather {LEVEL_3} Partial Light Mail {LEVEL_4} Light Mail {LEVEL_5} Partial Heavy Mail {LEVEL_6} Heavy Mail {LEVEL_7} Partial Platemail {LEVEL_8} Platemail {LEVEL_9} Light Plate {LEVEL_10} Heavy Plate {LEVEL_11} Gothic Plate {LEVEL_12} Late Gothic Plate
Leather Tanner Smith upgrades to level 1-2, Blacksmith 3-4, Armorer 5-6 etc. Given that each unit can have 3 upgrades this leads to quite a flexible system, ie an unarmored unit can be upgraded to Partial Light Mail. The right level smith will automatically upgrade the unit 2 levels if it can have that armor.
It also leads to good flexibility in armoring the unit as it is depicted in the game, eg Janissary Heavy Infantry has Partial Light Mail to start, when you look at the unit the mail coat only covers the torso and not the arms or legs. It can be upgraded to Partial Heavy Mail and this fits with how the unit looks. Norman knights for instance start out with level 6, full Heavy Mail.
Now the approximate joules of force required to penetrate each of the above types of armor is as follows (this obviously can vary to some degree but the values I have chosen seem reasonably representative and useful):
(Note: all armor types above ‘Padded’ are assumed to have a padded leather jack underneath.)
Armor Level Description Joules of Force to Penetrate {LEVEL_1} Padded 30J {LEVEL_2} Hardened Leather 60J {LEVEL_3} Partial Light Mail 75J {LEVEL_4} Light Mail 90J {LEVEL_5} Partial Heavy Mail 105J {LEVEL_6} Heavy Mail 120J {LEVEL_7} Partial Platemail 130J {LEVEL_8} Platemail 150J {LEVEL_9} Light Plate 170J {LEVEL_10} Heavy Plate 240J {LEVEL_11} Gothic Plate 280J {LEVEL_12} Late Gothic Plate 310J
An example of the kind of data used to generate the above:
Energy to defeat, in Joules: Arrowhead vs. Buff Leather 30 J Lance vs. Cuir-boulli 30-20 J Lance vs. Padding (16 layers linen, 60g for 16 x 21 cm) 50 J Arrowheads vs: Modern Mail (mild steel) alone 80 J Modern Mail & Jack Penetration 100 J Modern Mail and Tailor's Dummy 100 J (Soar et al) Modern Mail, Jack Penetration, and 35 mm penetration of Plastilene behind 120 J 15th c. Mail (low carbon steel hardened by quenching) two links broken and jack behind completely penetrated: 120 J 1 mm mild steel plate (perpendicular impact) 55 J for 45mm penetration 1. 5 mm mild steel plate 110 J 2 mm mild steel plate 175 J 1 mm “Victorian wrought iron”: 46 J for 51 mm penetration at 10 m 1.9 mm “Swedish” Wrought Iron 80-75 J
There is a great deal of this sort of information on the web.
Energy delivered: Stabbing: Underarm: up to 63 J Overarm: up to 115 J 2-Handed weapon: 150J English bows: 70 lb bow: 52-55 J (Hardy) 70 lb bow: 46-47 J at 10 m 80 lb bow: 70-83 J (61 J at 50 m) 140 lb bow: 99-104 J (Calculated from Soar et al)
Sorry to say the longbow isn't necessarily much use against plate armor! Weapon System Weapon attack values and armor values for every unit in the game have been re-worked based on the above sort of information, to yield the most realistic combat results possible. Weapon attack values now primarily reflect what level of protection as detailed above that weapon might reliably penetrate under inconsistent combat conditions (and at close range in the case of missile weapons), bearing in mind the armor piercing attribute also. Example: a longsword might generate anywhere between 60-120J, so its attack has reasonably been set to 4. A 2H sword might be 90-150J, so attack is 6. Example: a polearm now has a lower attack value than a 2H sword and attacks more slowly, so the 2H sword is more effective against lightly armoured opponents.
Weapon Type Base Attack Value Typical Special Attributes Base Attack Delay light sword 2 - 0 sword 3 - 0 long sword 4 - 25 2H sword 6 - 50 light spear 2 spear bonus 0 spear 3 spear bonus 25 knife 1
0 archer’s mallet 1 ap 25 club 2
25 mace, hatchet, war hammer 2 ap 25 battle axe, morning star/large mace 3 ap 50 2H club 4
75 pike 4 long pike, spear bonus 50 lance 4 very high charge bonus - billhook 4 ap 75 polearm 5 ap 100 polearm 5 ap, spear bonus 125 polearm 4 ap, long pike, spear bonus 75 bow 3 - - composite bow 4 - - longbow 5 - - mounted crossbow 5 ap - light crossbow 6 ap - javelin 7 ap - arbalest 8 ap - handgun 10 ap - arquebus 11 ap - musket 12 ap -
From the previous table: Base attack value: +1 for high quality troops (eg knight, janissary), -1 for low quality (eg militia), +1 per experience level (bronze, silver, gold). Minimum value is 1. This includes bows, as a more experienced archer can draw a heavier weight and fire more accurately.
Base attack delay: -25 for high quality, +25 for low trained, +50 for untrained (eg peasant). Minimum delay is zero; for units on horseback the minimum is 25 to stop ‘knights on cocaine’ syndrome.
For example, a knight with a longsword has attack value 4 for longsword +1 for knight=5, and attack delay of 25 for longsword -25 for knight =0. A peasant who can even get his hands on a longsword would have attack value 4 for longsword -1 for peasant=3, and attack delay of 25 for longsword +50 for untrained =75.
Note: I will say that though attack delay is billed in export_descr_unit.txt as the ‘minimum delay between attacks in 1/10ths of a second’, in practice it doesn’t seem to reliably work this way. All you can really say is that, usually more than half the time, a unit with higher delay than its opponent will attack less frequently. It is just another factor to throw in with the attack value and animations.
Further testing with attack delays would definitely be useful and if anyone can provide more data and results I would be grateful J
Horse Charge values: Note that the lance has only a base 4 attack, which is reasonable in the middle of a melee if the horse is moving only a little. If the horse is charging however, the following charge bonus applies:
Pony or fast pony: 10 Heavy or mailed horse: 12 Barded or eastern armoured horse: 13 Armored horse: 14.
Higher values reflect the fact that horses carrying heavier armor will typically be larger (eg knight’s charger or warhorse was specially bred for size and power) which will translate into more damage at the point of the lance.
Non-couched spears receive a charge bonus of 8 no matter the horse variety, as they cannot translate its momentum into damage nearly as effectively.
Swords or light spears on horseback receive a charge bonus of 6.
Axes, maces or light swords on horseback receive a charge bonus of 4.
Implications of this System -Combats last longer. It can take odds of 3 or 4 to one by lighter units to take on plate armored troops, and even then its often only tiredness that takes them down.
-Unit costs tend to reflect this, given that, for example, the armored warhorses alone of a group of knights could cost 5 times the yearly wage of a militia spear unit. Those militia spear units won't be dealing major casualties to your heavy units like they can in vanilla any more. I deal with unit costs further down.
- The value of armor piercing units rises dramatically, though they typically attack more slowly due to the bulk of the weapon weight being concentrated at the striking end and consequently having to regain balance after each attack. You will now find serious value in your polearm troops as the prevalence of heavy armor increases, as it was in history. To crack an armored opponent you want an axe, mace or polearm, not a sword. Unless a weak spot was found, the fact is that swords simply weren't very effective against anything from chainmail up. However, they deal plenty of damage to more lightly armoured opponents and also attack more quickly. The zweihander now finds one of its true roles of breaking up pike units, it dealing more outright damage than any other weapon and attacking relatively quickly, even if not armor piercing (I am considering raising its base attack value to 7 rather than 6). Still, in the hands of an experienced unit, swords can still be a threat to armor, leading on to…
-Unit experience level (bronze, silver, gold) adding to attack value is considerably more important now, relative to vanilla. Give your quality troops lots of militia and peasants to chew on.
-The charge is more important. Melee weapon upgrades are more important.
-A typical result from this system: 1 unit of Dismounted English Knights (poleaxe 5ap+1 for knight, 100 attack delay – 25 for knight) vs 3 units of Sudanese Tribesmen (sword 3, attack delay 0) results in many tribesmen dying quickly but the knights are getting hit a lot and are eventually overwhelmed, their weapon being slow and the AP attribute not helping much. A unit of French Dismounted Chivalric Knights (sword 4+1 for knight, attack delay 25-25 for knight) though will beat the tribesmen much more easily due to their higher protection (shield) and faster attack. One on one however the DEK will usually comfortably beat the CK, because that is the type of opponent they are intended to face.
-At first glance the attack values look far too low, but I just suggest you try it out, I think you will find the combats are still lethal enough. Just don’t put 2 units of inexperienced but shield-carrying armor-upgraded knights against each other and expect much more than a lot of ‘ding’ sounds for a while as the swords bounce off! There is in fact research to suggest that when knights did fight with only swords, it was often because they didn’t really want to kill each other (they would rather kill a lowly peasant on their own side than another noble ‘equal’ no matter which side) but rather just to force a surrender and collect the subsequent ransom. Mace and polearm carrying knights however are not so polite!!
-The system will yield better results once the @#%$! shield bug is fixed.
-Given that powerful armored units in RealCombat are so much more expensive to recruit than militia and regular units, you would be best to think about what sort of forces you want to field.
-For example, in RealCombat a Chivalric Knight is about 1320 or so to recruit, upkeep cost 420 or so. Is that a better investment over the short term than 8 militia units, approximately the same total recruitment cost, but double total upkeep cost? Over what period? Versus what kinds of opponents?
-Properly handled, a heavy armored unit in RealCombat can be decisive, but used poorly it can also be a lot of investment lost.
-The above financial model leads me to speculate that one would be well served by recruiting militia and levy units etc for short-term wars, throwing them against the enemy as attrition units and paying as little upkeep as possible for them over the medium to long term. You would also be well served by having a core of increasingly-experienced heavy units with relatively lower upkeep costs. This is not far off what often took place. It becomes even more viable as your heavy unit upkeep drops. (Note that in effect we are now talking about the feudal system, the obligation to serve placed on vassals by the lord in return for land tenure. Can we simulate this in M2TW? Yes, its quite simple and almost done...more of which in another mod later)
-In battle, you can then have your cheap units as holding forces to gauge the enemy strength and apply your quality units at the point of decision rather than having them tied down in the line. Hopefully this shatters enemy morale, gathering lots of valuable (ransom) prisoners and not damaging your expensive units too much while giving them more experience.
-Over time you will accumulate more and more good heavy units which can then become a larger portion of your armies. Given that in RealCombat a good heavy unit can take on multiple poor units, and we can only have maximum 20 unit armies, you can see that this will be a long-term strategy for battlefield domination.
Unit Recruitment and Upkeep Costs Also included is a complete re-work of recruitment cost and upkeep for every unit in the game based on actual medieval costs for armor, mount, training and wages. The overall result is that infantry costs drop, cavalry (especially knights etc) costs rise, and upkeep is a higher percentage of unit cost overall.
Armor Cost Gothic Plate 400 Plate 300 Plate Mail 200 Heavy Mail 100 Light Mail 80 Leather or Shield 10
Mount Cost Pony 100 Fast Pony 140 Heavy Horse 200 Mailed Horse 400 Barded Horse 600 Eastern Armoured Horse 700 Armored Horse 800
Missile weapons are relatively expensive due to time require to become proficient with the weapon. Unit to be Paid/Supported Wage/Upkeep Peasant 80 Militia 90 Regular Infantry 150 Archer 150 Longbowmen 200 Heavy Infantry 200 Militia Cavalry 200 Quality Infantry 240 Regular Cavalry 240 Quality Cavalry 300 Foot Knight 300 Horsed Knight 400
Horse upkeep: a further 20.
Total Recruitment Cost = Armor+Horse+Training+Wage/Upkeep Upkeep/year=Wage/Upkeep
I have followed the above formula as a guide for all units along with some minor tweaks, for example religious order troops have a slightly lower upkeep since (in theory) they aren’t in it just for the money.
Mercenaries I have set mercenary upkeep (‘Hiring’) costs/year to (Recruitment Cost+Wage)/2, reflecting the fact that mercenary troops are immediately available, paid considerably more/year but you don’t have to train them. In my own descr_mercenaries file I have made the recruitment cost the same as this Hiring cost. It makes mercenaries a decent option for 1 or maybe 2 years but after that you are losing money compared to recruiting the regular alternative.
I obtained much of the above from the ‘Medieval Price List’, which is available on the web. Parts are extracted below for those who are interested: