DIALOGUE WITH CATHOLICS RE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[하토브.]

ELIYAHU

Catholic was manufactured in 251AD after the Bible was complete, by Satan after the death of emperor Decius and his son in the battle.

CATHOLIC BT

Eliyahu EJ The idea that the term "Catholic" was created by Satan in 251 AD is a misconception. The word "Catholic" comes from the Greek katholikos, meaning "universal," and was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch around 107 AD to describe the Christian Church. The term has been used to denote the universality of the Church's mission and teachings. The Catholic Church believes itself to be the continuation of the early Christian community established by Christ and His apostles, not a creation centuries later.

ELIYAHU

Yes, Ignatius mentioned the word first. But none of the apostles called the Church, Catholic. Also, it wasn't universally used and accepted before 251AD. I think it was commonly used only after 311AD, after the split between Donatists and Apostates who returned from Idolatry. Mother of God never appeared in any epistles but start to appear after 251AD. Catholics started to invent many theories for veneration of Mary after 251AD, especially after 350AD.

CATHOLIC BT

 Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'd like to address your points from a Catholic perspective.

Use of the Term "Catholic":

You're correct that the term "Catholic" was first recorded in use by St. Ignatius of Antioch around 107 AD. In his letter to the Smyrnaeans, he wrote:

> "Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

(Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 

This indicates that the term was already in use within the early Christian community to describe the universality and unity of the Church.

While the apostles themselves did not use the specific term "Catholic" in the New Testament writings, the concept of universality is present in their teachings. For example:

Matthew 28:19-20: Jesus commissions the apostles to "go and make disciples of all nations," emphasizing the universal mission of the Church.

Ephesians 4:4-6: Paul speaks of one body and one Spirit, highlighting the unity of believers.

The term "Catholic" comes from the Greek word katholikos, meaning "universal" or "according to the whole." It was used to distinguish the true Church from heretical groups and to emphasize the unity of doctrine and practice among Christians spread throughout the world.

Veneration of Mary as "Mother of God":

The title "Mother of God" (Theotokos in Greek) was formally affirmed at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD, but the belief in Mary's special role dates back to the early Church.

Scriptural Basis:

Luke 1:43: Elizabeth greets Mary as "the mother of my Lord," acknowledging the divine nature of Jesus.

Galatians 4:4: Paul writes, "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman," emphasizing Jesus' divine origin and human birth from Mary.

Early Church Fathers:

Origen (c. 184–253 AD) and Athanasius (c. 296–373 AD) referred to Mary as Theotokos, supporting the belief before the Council of Ephesus.

The declaration at Ephesus was a response to the Nestorian controversy, which questioned the unity of Jesus' divine and human natures. Affirming Mary as the "Mother of God" safeguarded the doctrine that Jesus is one person with both a divine and a human nature.

Development of Doctrine:

It's important to understand that the development of doctrine in the Catholic Church is seen as a deepening understanding of truths already present in Sacred Scripture and Tradition.

John 16:12-13: Jesus tells his disciples, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth."

This suggests that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in unfolding the fullness of the truth over time.

Regarding the Donatists and Apostates:

The Donatist schism in the early 4th century was a significant controversy but primarily dealt with issues of purity in the clergy and the validity of sacraments administered by priests who had lapsed under persecution. It wasn't directly related to the acceptance of the term "Catholic" or the veneration of Mary.

In Conclusion:

While certain terms and doctrines were formalized in later councils, they often reflected beliefs and practices that had been part of the Christian faith since the beginning. The Church, through councils and theological development, sought to clarify and define these beliefs in response to misunderstandings or heresies.

I appreciate your interest in the history of these doctrines, and I'm happy to discuss them further or provide more details if you'd like. Understanding the historical context can be helpful in grasping how early Christians lived out and articulated their faith.

ELIYAHU

CATHOLIC BT You have mistaken the Truth of the Bible and of Lord Jesus Christ very much.

The fundamental truth of the Bible is that

All the people of the world are equal and brothers and sisters, and the teacher is only one, Jesus Christ.

Read Mt 23:8

There are 2 offices in the church, Overseers ( Episcope) and Deacon

Paul called the elders of the assembly in Ephesus ( Acts 20:17), then told them < the Holy Spirit made you the Episcopes> ( v 28). Also, Paul explained the qualifications of Episcopes in 1 Tim 3:1-17, which is the same qualifications of the Elders in Titus 1:5-9.

In other words, Episcopes=Elders. Philippians 1:1 mentions plural Episcopes in the singular church in Philippi. So, Episcope is not the supervisor of priests in a city, but is one of the elders. Therefore Episcope must be called Overseer, not the Bishop. There was no Bishop of the clergy system.

There was no priest in the First Church. Why? Every Believer born again in Christ is the priest, either man or woman, young or old. Because the Born Again Believer offer the sacrifice to God when they approach God by remembering and believing the great Sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on the Cross by His own Blood and Death. Therefore there is no office called Priest in the new testament church. In this aspect, Catholic churches have mistaken the church leaders and organization greatly.

Furthermore, Jesus hates the Clergy system of the churches. Why? Jesus already told the people, everybody is equal as brothers and sisters( Mt 23:8).

Therefore Jesus said He hates the doctrines and the behaviors of the Nicolaitans ( Rev 2:6, 15)

Who are the Nicolaitans? Nicao+Laos, which means < Conquering the Lay people> < Ruling over the Lay people>

How the Nicolaitans evolved ? Read Acts 20:30

<< 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.>>

Even among the elders of Ephesus church there could be someone who tried to make the people follow himself, instead of Jesus Christ, Paul warned.

In a certain sense, unity led by the Elders is necessary. If Ignatius meant such unity, it is OK. However, most of the Catholics misuse his word as meaning the clergy system so that the church leaders rule over the lay people, which is hated by Jesus Christ. Catholics already used the word Episcope meaning the Bishops over the priests, hierarchy system. So, they started to call the Bishop of Rome as the Pope, which is a Nicolaitan system.

Nobody in the Bible called Mary as the mother of God because Mary wasn’t the mother God the Father, nor the mother of God the Holy Spirit, nor the mother God the Son when He created the universe, when He met Abraham and Moses, when David called Him Lord, nor the biological mother of Jesus but a surrogate mother of Jesus because Jesus brought His own body from eternity. Bible said < Mother of my Lord> from this, Catholics manufactured the word, < Mother of God> Catholics never stay with the Bible words, but continue to manufacture the Idolatry as they manufacture the idols and excuses with all the paradoxes and sophistry which God never approves at all.

But after 251AD, not among Novatians nor among Donatists, but among Catholics, there start to emerge some people calling Mary the mother of God, which was the number one Idolatry to place Mary above God.

In 431 AD, Nestorius never claimed 2 persons in Jesus Christ but Cyrill and Catholics do so. The discovery of Bazaar Heracleidos which was discovered in 1895 and published in 1925 confirm‎s that Nestorius believed one person in Jesus. Even if Nestorius was expelled from Catholics, his followers made a great success in China, Manchuria, Korea, Japan during 600-1400AD. In China, Tang dynasty was most prosperous in their history as Nestorian Christians were successful almost equal to Taoism. God blessed them. In Manchuria, Liao dynasty ruling Qidan( or Kitan) had many Nestorians. This continued thru Soong Dynasty and Yuen dynasty.

In the meantime, the true Christians in West survived many persecutions and were called Donatists in North Africa and Italy, Paulicians in Middle East, Bogomils in Balkans, Albigenses in Alps and France, Petero Brusian, Waldensians, Lollards, Anabaptists, Hussites, after 1517, Moravian Brethren, Mennonites, Plymouth Brethren, etc.

I have written the articles about < Jesus had no DNA received from Mary> and < Brief History of the Biblical Churches> and many more.

Please read my posts for the details.

Your way of interpreting the Bible wouldn’t be accepted by God.

Your god is the son of Mary, and Mary is the Queen of Heaven, Queen of Heaven is condemned as the Devil in Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-25.

Therefore your god is son of Devil, Lucifer

Your church is built upon the skull of Peter, while the true church is built upon Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 3:11)

Get thee out of Catholicism

CATHOLIC BT

Eliyahu EJ Thank you for your detailed response. I understand your concerns about Catholicism, especially regarding the clergy system, the role of Mary, and the interpretation of biblical texts. It’s important to engage in respectful dialogue about differences in interpretation and beliefs.

Catholics do believe that Christ is the only mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), but also honor Mary and the saints as intercessors, not as gods. The titles and traditions surrounding Mary are seen as honoring her unique role in salvation history, not as idolatry. However, I respect your perspective and appreciate the historical points you’ve raised.

Engaging with Scripture and theology thoughtfully is essential, and I encourage ongoing study and prayer as we all seek truth in our faith journeys.

ELIYAHU

CATHOLIC BT << Catholics do believe that Christ is the only mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), but also honor Mary and the saints as intercessors, not as gods. >>> the intercessors of Catholics are the Mary and the Saints who are dead, whose bodies are skulls and skeletons, whose souls are sleeping, while the Intercessor of the true Christians is the Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:26). There are over 2 billions of Catholics, 1.5 billion RCC, 500 million Orthodox, etc. If they pray from all around the world, how many millions of prayers can Mary understand and deliver to God or Jesus? If you and millions of Catholics pray to Peter, how many millions of Catholics' prayers can be heard and understood, then delivered to God? How many languages can Mary and the Saints understand? Could they understand the Indio's languages? Are you scared to pray to God directly in person? Then you must be truly born again! not by water baptism! Can Mary understand the computer problems? Can Joseph understand Vietnamese? Why didn't Jesus say that you should ask anything thru Mary as your Catechism 2678-9 teaches? Why did Peter tell us to cast out all the problems to God the Father ( 1 Peter 3:6-7) instead of saying Cast out all the concerns to Mary ( Catechism 2678-9)? Your religion RCC is 100% opposite to the Bible truth!

CATHOLIC BT

 I understand the concerns you’re raising regarding the Catholic practice of praying to Mary and the saints. Catholics believe that those in heaven, like Mary and the saints, can intercede for us, much like asking a friend to pray for us. This belief is rooted in the idea of the Communion of Saints, which sees the Church on earth, in heaven, and in purgatory as interconnected. However, you’re right that the Bible teaches the Holy Spirit intercedes for believers (Romans 8:26), and many Christians prefer to pray directly to God. It’s a matter of interpretation and tradition.

If you’re seeking clarity on your faith journey, it’s always helpful to keep studying Scripture and praying for guidance.

ELIYAHU

CATHOLIC BT : Do you have any actual proof that Mary is interceding for you? Because Bible says the Believers are sleeping in Jesus ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14). Even the ancestor of Mary, David didn't ascend into the Heaven ( Acts 2:34) but sleep(13:36). Revelation 14: 13 tells us that the dead people will take rest. Are they learning languages, computer science, medicines so that they may help the living people by the interceding prayers? Nobody in the Bible taught us like that. Satan integrated the sorcery, the necromancy into the Catholicism as the apostates could be easily deceived. The Christian apostates sacrificed to the idols as per the decree by emperor Decius, but those apostates were too many and therefore they couldn't issue the certificates of the worship of Jupiter on that day, those apostates protested to get the certificates, then the authority told them to come next day in Cartago. There were confusions, but those apostates formed the majority of Christendom and they were the ancestors of Catholics, while only a few percentage of Christians kept their faith and refused the idolatry. After the schism, those Apostates never admitted their betrayal or respected those faithful Christians who refused the idol worship but they condemned the faithful Christians the cults, heretics. You must read Mt 7:13-14, the people running thru the wide open gates on the broad way to the Hell are many, while the Believers walking thru the narrow gate on the troublesome road to the life are few. Catholics are ca. 2.2 Billions, while the truly born-again believers may be 0.1 billion though God only knows the exact figures. Check Revelation 20, 21, 22. Why there is no Queen in the Heaven? Why is the Mother of God not exalted by God nor by the people? Why the Holy Catholic Church isn't mentioned in the Heaven or on the new millennial kingdom? Where is the Pope there? He will be thrown into the Lake of Fire ( 19:20) and his followers will be thrown into the lake of fire as well ( 20:11-15) Catholics are Idol worshippers though they deny the facts, but the God is Judge not the Catholic church nor Pope. Idol worshippers will be thrown into the lake of fire ( 21:8, 22:15) Repent and Get thee out of the Catholics!