role of debt in capitalism; 자본주의에서 부채의 역할 by Yanis Varoufakis

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Yanis Varoufakis On Capitalism Is Dead And Imagining A Fairer and More Equal Society Subtitle [Music] Hi how are you I'm good how are you thanks for joining me you're most uh welcome it's a great pleasure it you know no no no it is a pleasure to me because you may not know this um you you you know how football fans watch their teams playing yeah more or less during the economic crisis I was watching you and I was fascinated by what you did at at at the time I uh I worked at Google and I I was running Emerging Markets uh for Google right right when the crisis hit we took a very interesting position my team basically decided this was about helping as much as we can you know a very unusual position for a corporate if you think about it and so among Emerging Markets which one was the one to learn from Greece so I I I actually went to Greece many many times tried to talk to corporates and businesses and so on and uh and then I started to observe you and learn what you're doing while you were negotiating with IMF and with the US Treasury and it was it was quite a game I have to say I mean you scored quite a few goals so yeah I'm I'm a big fan I really am a big fan thank thank you so much for putting in the time that's very nicely to say thank you it must have been fun when you did that I mean uh it it was the worst time ever but I think you did it very differently than anyone I could have you know tell us a bit about that I I want to I want to bring us to a very interesting other topic another now but I want people to get to know you as much as I know you first so so so how was that like you you are running a country that is basically bankrupt right and everyone is attacking and you're there trying to sort of defend basically and gain a little bit and score a few goals tell us about that well the bankruptcy of the country was not incidental the only reason why we were elected and me personally was because it was bankrupt uh had no intention of being a politician I'm an economist at some point uh I started geeking and screaming because um the most bankrupt European state was given the largest Loan in the history of humanity under conditions of crashing further the incomes that were initially so low as to make it bankrupt so you know it doesn't take much to realize that this is um um a violation of basic logic and um you know I stood with um a very clear platform personally the party I stood with supposedly adopted this platform and this is why I agreed to run with him the platform was very simple if a if a debt cannot be paid uh it is either haircut or uh it is uh perpetuated through extending and pretending and since the powers that be the IMF the European Central Bank the European commission Berlin and so on were only interested in um pretending that we were not bankrupt and the only way you can do that is by kicking the G down the road by extending and pretending uh the proposition I had put to voters was you know if you vote for me and I become Finance Minister I'm not going to sign sign another you know on the dotted line of any other credit card agreement so there is going to be a clash um so was it fun yes was and at the same time was a complete tragedy because um uh people were actually starving people on the street were suffering uh people in their homes were privatizing their Despair and the suicide rate more than doubled and uh we had a genuine humanitarian crisis so it wasn't a laughing matter but was it to some extent spiting to be able to say to the power to the most powerful financiers and institutions of the world I'm not signing yes it was it was um very liberating for many people in Greece too because you know the most astonishing thing that people don't realize is that we were a minority government our party got 36% of the vote which was enough with the electoral system that we have to give us um more or less an absolute majority in Parliament so that we could form a government but let's say we had about 40% of the people with us when we were elected uh that's not nearly half and to clash with the most powerful institutions of the world even 50% plus one is not enough you should have you know 60% of the people with you at least and what was quite remarkable is that during those six months when I was in the ministry we managed to increase the amount amount of support that we had even though we were clashing uh at the expense of the majority of the Greeks uh with the most powerful institutions we managed in July that is five six months after we were elected more or less uh to have a to score a fantastic 62% support level at the at the referendum that we held on the fifth of July we managed to carry the people with us during thick and thin tragically on that very same night of the referendum my colleague who was prime minister of the time surrendered and I resigned and that's it I don't know how to say it any other way it's it's it's sad that this is the reality of our world so the reality of our world is that the largest financial institutions are constantly putting everyone in debt right and no nobody's even from the general public is aware of what's happening right that's number one uh number two the real it is uh there are very few that actually take a stand and say you know I remember the time one of every two Greeks was out of a job no I don't know if those those numbers were publicly announced but basically you know the amount of income in the country was cut by and even those who were working if I remember correctly any would were accepting you know 2third of their pay sometimes half of their pay because there was no other way right and so and so no politicians sadly rarely ever would stand up and say you know what we're not going this is a humanitarian crisis as you rightly said it and we're not going to you know uh work against our people so that's number two and number three which I have to say you know to to me so I'm I'm an Avid Reader and to me I read massively at that period to try and understand what was going on and there was so much written about Greece so much written about your policy and most of it was sort of fictionalized if you want people were mixing up the reason why Greece got there with the current policy and the reason right and it was just a mess and yet you stood uh firm and and you said I you know that that's this is not politics if you want this is sort of almost heroic no it was not heroic it was the the result of the fact that I didn't care about a political career I was not a politician I have to tell you that the day I resigned the ministry was relieved because it wasn't something I like doing it was like a chore it's like you know I keep saying this people don't like me saying this but I keep saying it's like you know taking the garbage out at night it really is actually yeah a lot of garbage as well somebody has to do it and you do it out of sense of public duty but when they're not letting you uh I was not going to stay on just in order to to be a minister and there were moments when I realized inside the European Union meetings uh the Euro group meetings amongst other Finance ministers and even my colleagues in the cabinet in in Athens that I had degrees of freedom than nobody else had why because I didn't care about the career if you care about your career as a politician then you are absolutely Bound To A system that uh PES very clearly to you to their line or you're out if you don't care about getting out then you know you have the freedom to speak your mind and to do that which people voted for you to be in there for so in that sense yes but on for the other hand I was demonized and you're right there was a um there was a A Narrative of uh demonization of um obfuscation of distortion I I couldn't recognize myself in the things that the Wall Street Journal or the financial times were writing about me uh those were not My Views they were not the things I said and yet they were being reported extensively and you know I noticed the ripple effect of official establishment fake news you know that one of those Outlets would publish a complete fiction about something I had said which I had not said and then suddenly it was being reported all over the world as a fact and it was in possible yeah to you know alert the media to the fact that it wasn't a fact not actually not said it yeah yeah yeah of course because because it's The Sensational news they want something controversial to talk about and if you if you say but I didn't say this that's not exciting enough for them to report about it yes and also it's um the the the the the quantity quantitative effects leave lead to qualitative effects so if everybody's reporting the same thing if you know some of the things they were reporting they were not even Sensational they were Minor Details which were wrong and yet because everybody was reporting the same thing when I would come out and contradict it the news that that would cause was oh vuis is taking it back no I'm not taking it back because I never put it out there I never said it the first place anyway this is why when I heard about another now I I spoke in the introduction about how you're writing a fiction a fiction about a world without that that system I was like that is so clever you know this is this is the way to tell the world without really you know talking about the facts if you want uh of course you do a little bit but without that you know we can say how how if we imagine a world that doesn't have all of this and and I want to take our listeners through that and it's definitely a highly recommended book for everyone listening uh and and we're going to talk about it in a minute but but let let's put the facts in place first especially for those who may not understand economics very well I I want to start with the reality of our world today I want to start with what the reality of debt is followed by the reality of what we think is the governing system you know capitalism and socialism and so on and so forth then let's go maybe even deeper and say how the world has changed over the last couple of years let's let's take this step by step to to paint the the picture of the current world world first before we tell them about that fictional world that you're dreaming in another now so so let me start by that idea of debt almost every Finance organization out there including the very very big ones you know the central banks the feds you know the IMF and so on are literally saddling everyone in the world uh with backbreaking debt that's almost entirely unpayable they know it's unpayable and yet you're they're they're still doing this why is that the case why why is that system that's in place today who does it serve well let me begin in a Hollywood manner first before answering seriously you will recall that um in the first movie of The Godfather series at the very beginning Godfather 1 begins with a wedding Godfather's daughter is getting married and there's this scene in his study when you know in the gardens there are celebrations and the wedding parties uh unfold uh and The Godfather m is receiving one minor or head of one of the minor Italian families Italian American families who is asking him for a favor uh his daughter has been abused by some person and he's asking The Godfather to teach him a lesson to bre his knee or kill him or something I can't remember exactly what it was and offers to pay him him and The Godfather is offended and he says you are offering me money for this no I'm going to do it so that you are in my debt so debt is power this is this is De is power I felt that in 2015 when I was negotiating with the IMF with the bankers and so on that the worst thing could that could happen to them seriously the worst thing that could happen to them is if somehow I had discovered you know a treasure and I had a 300 billion that g owed and I gave it to them that would have been their nightmare yeah the difficulty of my negotiations with uh gre's creditors in 2015 was that they didn't want their money back they wanted us to remain permanently indebted and bankrupt uh because that gave them immense power and if you want to know why just look at Greece today this Perpetual bankruptcy has allowed them to take our airports to take our ports to take effectively every asset there is for free and to keep taking forever H you know we are constantly buying um uh armaments from the French from the Germans from the Brits and of course from the United States so you know you you you indebt somebody you put them in your debt like The Godfather did and then then you are the feudal Lord It's quite straightforward but let me now be serious in my answer serious that is give you a proper Economist perspective on the role of debt in capitalism now I always begin this explanation by comparing and contrasting feudalism with capitalism because under feudalism we had a sequence first came production The Peasants work the land and produced wheat corn potatoes whatever it is that they produce then once the Harvest came in there was distribution the Lord would send the sheriff to The Peasants to claim the Lord's share so production followed by distribution and then there was Finance at the end Finance um in what form the Lord's share was large enough was too much for the Lord and his cronies to eat so a large part of that was Surplus and the Lord would sell it in nearby markets financialized it and then use that money to lend money out so you had this sequence you had production distribution Finance capitalism amongst other things that it did reversed the order once the land was yeah commodified parceled up enclosed and rented out to former peasants to maybe to the former Sheriff uh to who acted as a Proto entrepreneur this um Proto entrepreneur had to pay rent to the landlords to pay wages to workers to pay for the seeds in advance he didn't have the money so he had to borrow it so de Finance came first then came distribution because when you say to the worker I'm going to give you a loaf of bread a week or a day for you to work you know the wage this is a distribution of the Surplus that has not been produced yet between labor capital and the landlord who collect the rent so whereas in feudalism we had production distribution Finance or debt uh in capitalism we have debt distribution production comes at the end now this reversal Unleashed gigantic um productive Powers but what it also did was it made debt Central to the production process because it came in first before anything else so Bankers become essential in providing the fuel to the engine of growth under capitalism and the the debt that they because the debt comes first before production happens it's all fictional money so the bankers were forwarding you know giving effectively overdraft facilities of money that didn't exist so they were Conjuring up as if by black magic money that had not been produced yet so when you go to your bank and you get you $100,000 or million dollars to buy something either a property or to refurbish your soap or whatever that money doesn't come from the savings of somebody else it is numbers on a spreadsheet it it is thin air or hot air right the hope is that the money will be taken by you you will put it into good productive use you will generate production output you will prod produce the value so that you can repay the future effectively so that you can repay the future and the bank can repay the future and keep it it cut while this is working beautifully during the good times Bankers have an incentive to lend more and more money that doesn't exist that is effectively to borrow from the future to bring from the future money that hasn't been produced yet or value that has been produced to bring it to the to the present uh the the better that works the more profitable that is for Bankers the more they will do at some point they will borrow so much from the future that the present cannot repay the future and that's when you have a crash this is why we have central banks because crashes have been periodic non ongoing they are a feature of capitalism they're not an accident for the reasons that I outlined uh things became came to AE um a number of times in 1929 you had the worst crash because this you know the Roaring 20s before 1929 were the result of the first networked large scale companies like Edison and Ford and so on uh that needed huge quantities of capital and therefore you needed huge Banks agglomerations cartels of banks to come together and conjure up m ranges of non-existent money to give to them which then created the rational exuberance and stock of changes and so on so the whole thing came down 1929 New Deal comes in Breton Woods extends the New Deal after the war internationally and one of the provisions of the new deal and Bron Woods is that the bankers are not allowed to do this anymore you have Capital controls you have boring banking Bankers have been put like the genie into the bottle by Frank ruselt and then by Breton Woods 1971 Nixon shock 15th of August 1971 the whole thing goes blows up let's explain Britain Woods to everyone this is basically tying money to the gold uh Reserve so basically Banks cannot not you know yeah explain up until 1929 supposedly the quantity of printed money paper money was linked to the quantity of gold every Central Bank had in its vaults uh that never worked very well and because of course when a private bank gives a loan that becomes money and so the quantity of gold and the quantity of money are absolutely decoupled even if formally legally we have the gold standard so this thing collapsed in 1929 and then rusell comes in 1933 and effectively ends the gold St and says the is its own anchor but Bankers are not going to be allowed to conjure up money uh without permission from the state effectively uh there were severe restrictions in how much money private money the bankers could create now the New Deal um essentially was what it was the Federal Government playing two roles the first one was to ensure that the level of demand for goods and services was raised sufficiently to absorb unemployment that's the works program this is the um the fiscal part the investment part of the New Deal uh the second thing it did was to effectively constrain the bankers so that the bankers cannot through the process of conjuring up money from th air a appropriate value that they never created and B cause a blow up in in the future in 1944 as the war was ending it had not ended the America the Americans and the Brits and the Canadians were about to invade Normandy it was at the same time as the norand invasion but it was clear the writing was on the war that the Allies would win uh Rosevelt convened uh in New Hampshire uh at Woods the Bron Woods conference which to cut a long story short what it did was it extended the New Deal to the rest of the world uh and made the dollar the gold standard so in theory the dollar was convertible 35 oun dollars an ounce that was in theory in practice the dollar was the anchor of the world system and the bankers were kept in their place with capital controls with very effect an expected ban on um on betting in the Stock Exchange an effective ban on creating too much money and too much St that's until 1971 that's in in 1971 that system ended because this whole system was predicated upon the assumption that the American economy would be ins Surplus Vis the rest of the world that the dollar would be the currency the Global Currency uh exchange AG would be fixed and what would keep them fixed would be that was never actually spoken or written down but it was um assumed that when Europe or Japan had a balance of payments problem the surpluses of the United States would U uh somehow be handled either to Japan or to Europe in order to stabilize Japan and Europe the Marshall Plan is one example of that the way in which the Americans opened up their Market to Japanese Imports cars electronics and so on in the 1960s against the interest of American multinational companies is another example of how American surpluses were being used in order to stabilize the Japanese economy because the global system that was dollarized had to be stabilized by somebody was a surplus country the United States that did but you know from the 19 mid 1960s onwards because of the Vietnam War and because of the Great Society which was quite expensive the lynon Johnson program for reducing poverty America went into the red became a deficit country and the system collapsed in 1971 and with so many dollars circulating around the world because the dollar was the world C see uh it was a very clear choice by the Nixon Administration people like Paul vuler who was part of that Administration people like John Connelly the treasury Secretary of Nixon who used to work with LBJ before that he shifted from the Democrats to the Republicans yeah it was a very clear choice we're going to inflate the economy in order to um cause the dollar to lose its value Visa V the Yen the Doge Mark and so on in order to effectively haircut American debt uh and the way in which however America remained hegemonic at the time of a deval‎‎ued dollar that was quite spectacular was by increasing its deficits this is you know quite a paradox um if if a German Finance Minister realizes that that Germany is in deficit immediately they slam the brakes they try to reduce the deficit what the Americans did was to say okay we're going to increase accelerate the deficit yeah increase the deficit and who's going to pay for that the rest of the world yes and how will the rest of the world pay for that by sending their profits from selling stuff to the Americans uh they're going to send it to New York to be invested so there's this feedback loop that was closed but to do that they had to unleash WS they had to allow wall streate to do whatever wall State wanted to do so that's the end of Bon Woods it's the end of restrictions to the banks the banks can now from 19975 onwards do whatever they wanted and they could go back to the 1920s model of creating huge quanties of money uh money that didn't exist out of thin air and that worked until 2008 because financialization the creation of you know t and tons of money that had no connection to really existing capitalism at some point led to this Avalanche that was the crisis of 2009 let me try and put this in a in layman's terms and then you know correct me if I'm wrong so so since that you know change basically we went back to the idea of banks being able to create money on demand okay so I'm dreaming of this house I don't have the the money for the house uh you know somehow we created some kind of a magic formula that basically said I don't need the money I can just borrow it okay and when I borrow it I have the house but I don't actually borrow it what I do is I snap my fingers and uh the money gets created it suddenly lands in my bank account it never existed before the only thing is that this magic formula involved the bank in the middle and the bank said to allow you to snap your fingers I'm going to have to charge you5 10% more right and and since then everyone is running to pay back and pay back the 10% more actually it's even worse than that because you see uh financialization what they started doing after 1975 73 74 75 is the beginning of the options of the collateralized debt obligations and so on what they started doing was something quite quite Preposterous even by the standards of Bankers you see if you're a banker and I come to you and say give me a million dollars I want to buy a house uh you used to be worried that I may not be able to repay you yeah but they overcame that fear they came the fear because they found a way of not caring about whether they will be repaid so what they would do is this uh I would come to you I would um ask for a million dollars you would give it to me that debt that you now hold uh which has um collateral the house that I bought right that debt you immediately cut it up in tiny little pieces you cut up other debts into little pieces American government debt that is US treasuries Japanese government debt uh the debt of companies uh the debt of other householders some of them with more money than I have safer uh debtors than me others less safe so you chop up all the debts that you've given out you've Cho them up entirely little pieces then you take a little box a box and you put some pieces of this some pieces of that some of the other and you sell this as in the same way you would sell a share or a bond and this this box inside contains bits of different governments of people's or companies debt with different interest rate different probabilities of default and so on and they were so devilishly complicated that nobody knew what was inside those boxes not even the people who actually created them but once they started selling them right uh they started selling like hot cakes because when everything was going up everything was going up including those things so if I were to say to you look there this is this piece of paper you know you don't know what's in it what it is you have no idea what it is but but let me tell you and let me say that I can actually prove that this is not just here so that I bought this piece of paper for $100,000 and I bought it from somebody who two days ago bought it for $50,000 who had bought it from somebody else who a week ago had bought it for $1,000 immediately you want it you think my God this we went from a th000 to 50,000 to 100,000 in a week in two weeks right so imagine if this is happening for 10 years and these Bits of Paper or these boxes of different kinds of debt containing different pieces of debt have been going up and up and up and up everybody wants it now this then started the capacity to create those those boxes is the equivalent of printing money and the banks could do it so I would then come to you to get a loan from you you didn't give a damn whether I would be able to repay you were actually not waiting for me to come to you to to ask for a loan you would seek me out and push a loan like a predator lender down my throat I've got million for you take it please take it I don't even want to see any pay stops from you you know whether you have a job I don't care I really don't care because I'm not going to be the one who has to repay it if you can't pay because I will chop it up in tiny little bits put it in different box and sell them somebody else get that and because they also had this view this absolutely acious and crazy belief that this wasn't wasn't the problem why because my debt was chopped up in tiny little pieces and it was spread out in different boxes Doos all over the world so even if yanis defaulted on his debt you know no nobody would suffer much because this million dollars that I owe was chopped up in you know tiny little bits people wouldn't even notice if one of those bits defaulted but when every Bank was doing the same thing and one bank was buying the other Banks cdos you know derivatives and then in the end you had a situation where let me give you a number in the year 2000 the year 2000 total income aggregate income GDP planetary GDP was something like 50 $50 trillion right 50 the value of these derivatives was around 4550 a lot right asang a second by 2007 World inome had gone from 50 to 70 from 50 to 70 the value of these derivatives had gone from 45 to 800 oh my God so planet Earth was not large enough to contain them so they exploded and they burned out in the year 2000 and it is then that we had a new 1929 except except that there was no Rosevelt unfortunately we had Obama Obama Gordon Brown in Britain the European Union so on and this is 2008 right this is not 200 2008 2009 you know by the time yeah by the time the crisis had to be sorted out which was in the spring of 2009 Obama was was Obama yeah correct yeah in the White House and Gordon Brown was in London Merkel was in uh in Berlin and so on and the one thing they agreed to do the one thing they agreed to do at the G7 meeting in April 2009 in London was to get together all their central banks to print mountain ranges of money again in order to Reflow the banks yeah that was the moment in my view capitalism died because I have this very weird theory that what we are experiencing today I mean capital is everywhere markets have every capitalism is everywhere but this is not capitalism something worse I call it techn Fidelis why am I saying that because in 2009 for the first time in the history of capitalism you had a major transition instead of the system the economy being driven by profit by private profits it is being driven by Central Bank money correct the markets especially the money markets are completely addictive to central bank money uh if you look if that the Goldman there's a very famous index by Goldman SX the index of unprofitable of the value of unprofitable unprofitable Corporation corporations don't make profits if you look at the share vales been going through the roof why they're not making profits uh they're loss making and yet their value is going through their what the reason is that the central \]banks are printing money and throwing them at the markets correct so you don't give it down where a share is going to give you dividend all you care about is that the share is going to go up because more money is circulating in the stock exchange chasing after the same number of shares uh and companies borrow money from commercial banks that borrow money from the central bank to do what to buy back their own shares so you've got this complete decoupling between really existing economies and financial Mar Market isn't that magnified even a 100 times in cryptocurrency which really produces nothing but basically is getting floods of money coming in to chase it of course because you see today look um since 2008 we had um tens of trillions of dollars that were printed by the central banks and given to commercial Banks correct commercial Bankers who can only make money if they land it on okay they are at a loss because they look at little people out there and they think no no no no little people are not safe bets so we're not going to give give we're not going to give them lend money to small businesses medium businesses to people actually capable of doing useful things with a money so they pick up the phone and they call Apple they call Volkswagen now the thing with apple and Volkswagen is that they have savings which in itself is a sign that there's something very badly wrong with the economy we live in because corporations are not supposed to have savings you and I you know households are supposed to be to have savings and corporations are supposed to borrow in order to invest so when corporations have savings you know that there's something that matter but anyway so when Google is already sitting Google Apple they're already sitting on tens or hundreds of billions of dollars of savings why do they want the money from the Bank of America or City Group why do they want to to borrow money they don't but Bank of America wants to Rend them money Bank of America America gets its money from the central bank as negative interest rates so you know from the European Central Bank or zero interest rates in the case of the Fai so free money uh and they call up their friends in the corporate sector and say look we have free money for you we just just charge you 0.1% more you know a spread um will you take this money off our hands because a banker's nightmare is to have money and not being able to land it on so you know people people in Google and FX say all right okay send it all yeah send it all we'll do you do your favor and what do they do with the money they don't need it because they have saving they take it to the stock exchange and Google buys back Google Shares alphabet shares you know Apple buys Apple shares folks Bagon buys Apple uh Volkswagen shares uh Zan buys back Zan shares so this share prices go up they've managed to push their share price up without pain you know without it's not no skin of their nose they use money that was that came to them for free from the Central Bank it goes up much much much higher than the 0.1% that they're paying anyway their salaries depend on price the share price so they get a lot of money they go and buy houses in Manhattan in Berlin and so on house prices go up little people can't afford to live in their own cities inequality skyrockets and this is a vicious circle and capitalism suffers because profit is no longer made the you know medium-sized businesses are suffering they have no profits companies that are not involved in the sexy part of the market do not make profits their share goes up because the whole of the share you know the the financial markets goes up but they do not make profits and suddenly the whole system is hooked on Central Bank money so capitalism used to be a system that had two pillars one was Private profit it was fueled by private profit that's no longer the case it is fueled by Central Bank money and the second thing is that everything that happened in capital happened in some Market the labor market uh the market for goods the markets for services which markets that were not always competitive you had all alistic markets the the automobile industry was never competitive there were five 10 companies but still it was a market now markets are being displaced by platforms you know when you go onto amazon.com this is not a market it's like a a digital space that belongs to one algorithm to one man effectively J basis okay the algorithm decides what consumers see to buy the algorithm decides what to promote what not to promote uh in the end this platform resembles a feudal Village belonging to a feudal Lord where commercial activity takes place by permission of the feudal Lord so this is why I'm saying that um the crisis of 2008 changed the world in the same way that 1991 ended communism 2008 from where I'm standing change capitalism now when it's interesting when I say that the people that loathe me the most are fellow left Wingers because as you know I'm a left Winger uh because you know we socialist we came to this world thinking that we would topple capitalism so that my fellow left Wingers do not like hearing from people like me that capitalism did not wa to be toppled by them that it toppled itself and it gave to something called feudalism not socialism but there you have it the question is that we're building all of this on no Foundation whatsoever money comes out of thin air gets lent to people who don't really need it then you know nobody cares if they pay it back if they you know if they pay it back or if they don't we're just L we're just borrowing more and more from the future and there is no limit comes to trillions of dollars you know countries themselves are borrowing what I'm trying to say is actually there is no money money is an illusion basically money is money was always an illusion money was always an illusion that is not a problem the problem is that there used to be times when the that illusion was useful and it could back its own Illusions up with real things the word money uh in Greek or actually the name for currency is is the is nomisma from the verb Nomo which means to imagine to think so Aristotle um had grasped it from the very beginning from the ancient Athenian times that currency has value just because we think that it has value uh even in ancient Mesopotamia uh where Iraq today is uh or Syria the first civilizations the first um serious economies agricultural economies even then money was um an illusion how did it work what was the first form of money the rulers in order to uh pay the workers for working on their fields they would write on fragments of clay numbers this is how numbers were invented and those numbers corresponded to uh quantities of of wheat let's say or corn or whatever it was that they were producing that they would get at the end of the Harvest so it was like an IOU but these I us those th those shards of glass or shards of clay um they could only be redeemed at the end of the Harvest 6 months eight months from now but a a farmer could use those you know to go and buy milk for his kids and uh and they were transferable so transferable IUS was the way in which money began okay now as long as the system worked as long as at the end of the Harvest you got the the right quantity of wheat was produced to back up the value of that Shard of clay the system worked so even though money was always an illusion even when it was metallic uh what we have done since 1971 in the end of Breton Woods was to create circumstances in which the finances have taken over the economy instead of being facilitators of economic life of production of output of investment they've taken over capitalism they have trouble charged their capacity to expropriate large quantities of value that other people produced and they kept doing it to such an extent that blew up the system effect in 2008 and since 2008 we have a complete disconnect between the world of money money markets and the world of production and now with Amazon Google with big Tech uh with the platforms taking over and with enormous power to make people produce without being paid or being paid very because if you look at what's happening now in the world of production a lot of production takes place without pay for free yeah so we know when people actually uploading things on Facebook they're adding to the Capital stock of Facebook but they're not getting anything back themselves and then you have people working in Amazon warehouses um precariously employed workers working for $15 an hour and if they you know get fired they get nothing they don't have holiday they have no insurance uh so either they get paid very little and precariously or none at all which means that the CM between our society's capacity to produce things and the capacity of people out there to actually buy those things this C is getting much greater and the only thing that can fill in this Gap is the state which keeps through central banks producing money but of course this money goes to whom to the very rich because you don't have high helicopter money you don't have a basic income you have the c commercial Banks giving it to the very rich to buy apartments in Manhattan and hoping that some of it will trickle down to the many and the result is a very unpleasant Society even for the very rich you know if Warren Buffett um Gates some of the the richest people on the planet especially in the United States are seriously worried about inequality it's not because they are philanthropic it is because they see that the society that we are creating that is emerging from all this is going to be a very nasty and brutish society in which they will feel very insecure they will live to live be behind you know gate gates in gated Gates will have to live in gate commun otherwise his own safety cannot be guaranteed so in a sense my criticism of the world we live in is not that it is unfair it is that it is inefficient it it is that it is irrational that we move Beyond capitalism something that is closer to a digital version of feudalism uh which is unsustainable we're killing the planet we are dividing ourselves and to are create think Technologies capable of producing things that people out there cannot buy before we go into where this is heading I want to take the other major event recently so so you know we we're killing capitalism we're flooding the market with money that is government money not profit and value-driven money and then comes Co what what what was the impact of covid on all of this I'm going to surprise our viewers but or listeners by saying that um I don't think that Co did anything new Co simply turbocharged what has been happening since 2008 I do strongly believe that in 2050 people are going to be looking back to 2008 2008 not to 2020 as the moment capitalism died because if you think about what happened with in 2020 with um the lockdown okay Central Bank started printing more money but they had already started doing it in 2008 what did governments do very little I mean and whatever governments did it was all financed by Central Bank money anyway so it was good that government stepped in and provided Fair low schemes to workers and support businesses they had to do it there was no alternative but the structure of fiscal policy the structure of a taxation system the structure of the real economy didn't change at all all that did was the fed the European Central Bank the bank of England the bank of Japan the bank they started printing a lot more flatting the markets isn't it not fantastic that you know when capitalism effectively was put on hold financial markets were going through the roof yeah yeah yeah even Bitcoin because people had so much cash they didn't know what to do with that they bought anything it was the you know the everything rally during the worst times of capitalism so I don't believe that that that um Co had much of an influence except quantitatively it did it made a bad thing worse can I ask you to clarify why you say governments and central banks as if they are uh two separate entities well they are supposed to be um Accord in the in in Europe for instance in the European Union in our Infinite Wisdom we created the central bank but not not a European Central Bank but not a European State not a European government think about so a central bank uh but we don't have a government behind it uh and we have governments without the central bank because the European Central Bank is not allowed by its legislation by its Charter it's Constitution to finance the governments that use the euro the EUR bank is in the United States also supposedly the the FED is independent from the federal government supposedly uh there is a degree of autonomy that the FED has but at least in the United States there is a modum of logic um and the the the Federal Reserve the Central Bank of the United States will never allow the American government to go bust unlike the Central Bank of Europe which um allowed my country to go bust they would allow ital you know tou and go whether Italy will go Bust or not so that's why I speak about governments and central banks not not not believing for a moment that one is independent from the other but there is a degree of of Separation so who owns the central bank who owns the FED ah that is a very interesting question uh you know what nobody knows the Fed was created by JP Morgan right and other Bankers why because JB Morgan had enough of bailing out his fellow Bankers every time there was a banking crisis so in the first decade of the 20th century J Morgan at some point had enough and gathered over the central bank and said look let's let's create the Federal Reserve so that we can bail each other out uh with of course you know which was presented of course as a federal government that's why it's called a federal a federal government um institution in the end it really doesn't matter because they are not the central banks are not Banks it's a state institution that provides bailouts to Banks that's what the the deal is so when there's a banking they're printing money so basic so basically the money in your country they are only printing 3% of the money oh 3% oh oh oh oh oh so the rest is printed by the bank 97% is printed by the commercial Banks oh wow not not I'm not talking about the paper money paper money is printed by the FED right but that's only 3% of the money even less today it must be about 1% of of the money that is doing the run every time you pay in Starbucks with your card that's not paper money it's bank money and bank money conjures it up from thin air so central banks look the only the only way that central banks can influence can can can railroad the private Banks is by threatening not to bail them out if there's a bank run that is the only way the FED can threaten the Bank of America or City Group it can control but then you know given that they are too big to fail um it's not a credible threat really because the good people in Bank of America know that they're not going to be allowed to go to the wall because if they go to the wall America goes to so we've effectively we have a system where the bankers are ruling the roost um they make a mint out of it while the real economy is happen and the majority of people out there look at their kids and they look at their grandchildren and they see people younger people who are going to have a much worse life than they did and this hopelessness this lack of Hope for the future the future you know my favorite expression‎‎ these days is that the future is not what it used to be this is what fuels racism this is what fuels populism this is what brought Trump to to the White House it's what uh creates discontent uh and um leads to the breakdown of our democracies and where is it heading is is it heading to be to become worse or better is there going to be a change is it is there a time where it breaks yes there will be a time when it breaks but I hope we don't reach that time because if it breaks um you know what does that mean it means Blood on the streets it means um you know Civil War in the United States uh it's it's a country that um is prone to violence and it's a very violent State as well in terms of its uh uh influence uh on the rest of humanity here in Greece I saw with my own eyes what happened when we had a a complete collapse implosion of the economy we had Nazis in in Parliament we had Nazis on the street we had people being killed on the streets by Nazi thugs bearing sasas so no I don't want to see that uh but look I don't care about prediction I'm not in the business of predicting because um unlike the weather which can be predictive and which is okay to predict because you know a meteorologist job is to predict the weather you judge a meteorologist according to how well they predict the weather but um when it comes to politics unlike meteorology where the weather at least doesn't give a dumb about what we think of it so if we get our our weather Focus wrong the weather is not going to change what it's going to do but in society our predictions about society change what we do and therefore change society so have a moral duty not to predict but to do that which is right this is why I'm in politics even today but what is that I mean so for the listener listening to us or watching us you know what what would it what would they do in a system should I go to a bank and borrow as much money as I can and put it in Bitcoin because honestly that's the way the system is working uh should I you know should I um avoid debt all together um you know we're living in a in an economy where the one currency that actually manages everything for us is f fictional it doesn't really exist and it's affecting everyone's life and as you rightly said the rich are getting richer and the poor are suffering you just reminded me of uh my dad who passed away a few months ago um when I was very young he said something that has stayed with me he said um the only advice I can give you is to imagine that you are walking in life on the path of life like a completely shirtless Refugee imagine you're a refugee you've been spot out by some boat on some Shore and you'll have nothing except you know a pair of pants what is the only Capital that you carrying with you your education your education Your Capacity to do things your erudition your knowledge of mathematics your know knowledge of medicine whatever it is your human capital try to improve that um there is no Haven Bitcoin is a pyramid just like um you know made ofs yeah yeah Burnie made offs yeah the dollar can inflate or um a share may lose its value or bond yields may go through the roof and bond prices May collapse uh there's no Safe Haven in a system which is um unhinged the system we live in is unhinged this is the whole point of our discussion so let's try to improve ourselves and let's try to improve the system change the system this is why I wrote another now let's talk about another now then the worst enemy of humanity is the false belief that there is no alternative and the most hopeful thought that I can come up with is that you know what everything could be different when voler wrote uh a humor full novel called Candid he conjured up the image the image the character pangos who was a tutor of candid in volz's little book and pangos had a theory his theory was that we live in the best of all possible worlds that this world could be horrible it may suck but it is of it is the best of all possible words now my view is precisely the opposite yeah that pangos was completely wrong that we do not live in the best of of of all possible worlds that yes we are fallible we you know as a species we have huge disadvantages and tendencies for evil there's no doubt about that and stupidity collectively and individually but nevertheless we have also wonderful capacities and this world despite our fallibilities um could have been far far better and we could make it much better so you know how should money work how should central banks work um not how do they work how should they work um how should corporations work uh how should the use of land of scarce land be handled who should own it and who shouldn't own it you know let's reconsider let's rethink our Arrangements uh not that we can just press a button and bring about a world according to our utopian thinking but unless we engage in this process of rethinking how things could have been we will be stuck in the iron cage of believing that as pangus did that we live in the best of all possible worlds and that is a great threat to our children and grandchildren so you know um to put my money proverbial money where my mouth is I decide to sit down and write a novel in which uh I describe an alternative now and others now um in which book I tried to provide the reader with a blueprint of how the basics of our social social economy could operate from corporations markets land money International Trade migration uh governments democracy and so on it was not an easy task and I will leave a judgment of how successful it was to my readers but it was fun trying and I really have to say that um I miss writing that book because in order to actually write it I had to do it as a novel why is a novel because I disagree with myself on many of the things that I wrote you know I come up with an idea and then I disagree with it and I come up with a second idea I disagree with that idea so I thought H how am I going to write a book when I disagree with myself on its contents I thought well this is why people write novels because you can populate a book with different characters and you can give different views of yours to different characters and let them fight it out that's so interesting so there there are multiple yannies in this uh you know in this novel arguing with each other inde did let's start with the basics here okay you're saying a world that has no banks right of course no banks no no no central banks and accordingly no stock market oh no Central Bank there is a central bank there is okay so so so explain to me how this works in in a very high level as I said everyone should read this it's a it's a beautiful vision of what the world could have been or may have may become uh but but let's start so no banks okay uh no Tech Giants no billionaires uh how does it look like it sounds like uh will you put it that way even I feel oh my God that sounds like a to totalitarian regime no it's not because what I'm saying is okay markets are IR Irreplaceable markets do a wonderful job at coordinating the activities of producers and consumers but however there are two markets that are highly problematic one is the market for money we've already discussed one I'm not going to go through this again and the other is the market for labor the idea of the market for labor is that there are some people who sell labor to others who buy it that's the idea of the labor market now why should somebody have the capacity to buy my labor and why should I have to sell my labor to anyone I mean in the end everybody wants to be an entrepreneur right everybody wants to be in business for themselves so by being a situation where you're selling your label to somebody um you are essentially in a subordinate position Your Capacity to be a ruler of yourself and I'm saying this as the Liber is diminished moreover we've seen that Adam Smith who was the greatest advocate of capitalism of markets and a guru of those who are speaking in favor of capitalism Adam Smith was completely and utterly against public limited companies companies that have Anonymous shareholders where the shares are like pieces of paper that are or these days Electronics shares that are sold uh and bought anonymously in a share market Adam Smith the guru of capitalis was against share markets and the reason was because if you separate uh ownership from running the business in Adam Adam Smith explicitly said that if you separate ownership from the running of a business uh then you are inly leading to large corporations that dominate markets create Monopoly power and therefore exploit consumers and kill off Innovation that's Adam Smith I agree with him okay so let's start from where Adam Smith began that we do not want liquid ownership we do not want the share market so if you do away with share markets how do how can you do away the share markets with one way is to have companies like in Adam Smith time that belong to a family familyowned businesses but we know now with the technologies that we have you can't have a car company that belongs to the family that would be feudalism like the aneli family that had fat that's not liberal and it's not efficient and you it really can't work especially with with with in the technology sector okay so so what's the alter the alternative is to have um corporations where everybody who works in them owns a bit of them owns one share yeah one share one share and I EnV Vision it in the book like the library card that college students get when they enroll at College you get into college you get a library card it's very useful it allows you to take books out of the library to register on the computer system of the University um to have your email account to vote in election students ctions to attend classes right um You can't rent it out you can't lease it you can buy you can sell it when you're out of college you have to turn to return it end of story imagine if you had corporations in which every you know when you were hired you just got one of those votes one share one vote and you participate in all the decisions of the firm now that doesn't mean that everybody should be getting the same salary because if you and me and another 100 people a company and we need an engineer that does wonders we will have an incentive amongst ourselves to to pay that engineer a lot more money than we get so this is not an argument for Equal Pay it's an argument for equal say okay uh but the think come to think of it the moment you do that the moment you do that you don't have a share market because shares cannot be bought or sold so you don't away with shares and you have corporations that work far more liberally than today and you have corporations that will choose not to be too large because if everybody has one share and one vote right then you don't want to be in a corporation that has 10,000 in placey because it's very hard to manage it the to put it this way if um if um you know General Electric where to become a company like that then the employees of General Electric will want to split it up into the division that makes fridges and another division makes engines for airplanes another division that does this that and so they can grasp it yeah they would themselves have an incentive to do it because it will be easier to run the businesses in a way that is Meaningful to them so it's not that the state comes in and breaks up companies regulate no you all you do is you change corporate law you say one share on vote non non-tradeable and then suddenly the size the optimal size of Corporations gets smaller you have more competition right and you don't have a share market and then corporations for a change don't work for the benefit of the shareholders they either work for the benefit of their customers or their employees or their their you know their countries their economies well the sharehold is other employes exactly right the shareholders are the employees um and and and and then because will be much smaller and they will you are not going to have this huge concentration that you have now uh you are not going to have a situation where there will be so much Market power concentrated in the hands of so few shareholders who own the big corporations the corporations will be bigger and share ownership will be everywhere everybody who works anywhere is going to be a sharehold uh now at the same time take the the system now that we now have Central Bank prints money gives it to the bankers the bankers give it to their friends to buy their own shares well that is not going to be happening anymore because the corporations will not belong to the Friends of the bankers correct and they will not be able to buy shares anyway um so I'm not a big state person who says oh ban the banks no you wouldn't even need to ban the banks if there's no shares for the banks to finance the tradeoff and if you cut the bankers out of the middle between the central bank and the citizens so imagine at the moment if you ask the FED why are you printing money to give to commercial Banks the answer will be because we are stimulating the economy we hope that the the commercial banks will then give it to companies the companies are going to employ people so well why not simply cut out the the middleman the commercial bankers and why not do that with which the Chinese Central Bank is doing now which is creating a digital currency a digital cryptocurrency State currency not a Bitcoin one so the the becomes a digital imagine if the FED turned the dollar into a digital dollar which means what everybody has a wallet you have a wallet I mean everybody who lives in the United States every resident of the United States or anybody who does business in the United States gets a wallet with a central bank and let's say that the Central Bank wants to stimulate the economy well what you know why not simply credit a basic income to every wallet correct you don't need to go through Commercial Bank correct and if you have inflation you reduce the amount of credits that you give people basic income so suddenly everybody has a bank automatically simply by being a resident of the United States it's the S the FED everybody has a wallet with the fed you don't to make a payment today you need to go to the Bank of America in of an account otherwise you can't get a card by which to buy sandwich from Starbucks but if you have the FED providing everybody with a digital um application on your phone right you don't need a Commercial Bank you have the FED now you see I didn't Bank in my idea in my blueprint I haven't banned the banks I simply have given them no reason to exist because if they cannot fund the purchase of shares because the shares are not to be bought anymore and if people can make payments without having a bank account if the banks want to survive and they have something to offer you that the fed's wallet cannot offer you fine let them do it but I bet you they will not survive because nobody will want Bankers nobody will want to open a bank account if they can do without it especially if the the the fed's wallet is free interestingly whatever comes out of the FED at that time would not have to suffer all of the uplifts if you want the other people the middle people that need to to to make profits in the process and so inflation would slow down basically because money is not just you know being borrowed from the future all the time and also the FED will have direct Direct Control of the quantity of money it will not the commercial Bankers will no longer be able to print money to create money the FED will determine that and if we care if people say about I don't trust the FED I don't trust the fed well that's where blockchain comes in so in my another now um the the Central Bank the FED European Central Bank and so on they issue digital money using a blockchain why because a blockchain allows everybody to know how much money there is in the system so the fed the Central Bank cannot fool the people they cannot create more money than people know that there is in there and at the same time it guarantees the privacy of transactions as in Bitcoin so I'm all for blockchain I don't like Bitcoin I don't like cryptocurrencies unless they are democratically controlled by a central bank which is answerable to the deos to the people so these are the kinds of ideas that that that that I used in creating the other now the alternative way of running a social economy a liberal social economy um and a social economy which is has a capacity in my view to appeal both to liberals uh and to leftists well I I think the idea of the blockchain is happening somehow not in that exact same description it's the it's the absence of the stock market that is so eye opening for me I I always thought the issue was fractional reserve and the ability to print on demand I think you highlighted to me today that the bigger issue is that the money being printed is not actually used in production at all it's actually used in just speculation really we we we we're start yeah we're we're running a massive Casino that's right that's right where money is placed yeah is placed as bets and because the entire casino is inflating and more money is coming in uh you know yeah you seem to be making good bets but the reality is you're creating zero value yep indeed yeah I mean I I don't know it's it's sounds it sounds like an interesting dream yianis I I I I I don't know how to tell you otherwise I think I think we're you know you're highlighting where the challenges are uh but you're but at the same time they're so entrenched in our system that I think it's actually difficult to eradicate so many Millennia of uh of uh of of habit and greed yeah so so you know I think I think I'll go back to your advice the one that you gave us I mean I I know for our listeners this might have been especially those who are not into economics or finance and and money and so on it might have been a bit complicated but it just gives you an understanding really of what's actually happening the underlying infrastructure of money which is not really what we think it is that thing that you keep chasing constantly is actually not what you think it is at all it doesn't really exist in the form that we think it is and I and I'll go back to yanan's uh uh uh you know advice the one to invest in the thing to invest in is you is to become the best possible version of you because it doesn't really matter what where the economy is going how much money is worth how much money uh you know is circulating up or down in the economy as long as you're capable of providing some kind of a valuable service you're okay right as long as you're the best version of you that kind of valuable service is the highest value it can be I think that's a profound advice honestly you know I speak about that constantly from a spiritual or well-being point of view that you constantly need to invest in yourself to be the best version of you I think y also opened my eyes today that you need to be the best version of you as a participating member of society because then you are that production that is missing in this equation more and more I uh I can't thank you enough for your time today and I think it's a it's fascinating it's eye openening and I love the the vision that you put in place of a of a world that doesn't have all of that because I agree with you I think seeing that vision makes us inspired to maybe go a little bit in that direction I really can't thank you enough for your time and for your amazing knowledge well thank you thank you the pleasure is mine and I hope that um those who actually read the book actually enjoy the story line the science fiction part yeah yeah yeah I I so I yeah I I think it's a fascinating a fascinating book and the science fiction part of it is quite funny it's quite brainy and it's a very moving novel I think in many ways uh it's it definitely is a recommendation well thank you very much thank you for all of you listening I can't thank you enough for for the opportunity that you give me uh to meet some of my uh biggest you know biggest um Heroes and and as I said in the opening I definitely followed uh Yan's work uh during the crisis and I was a big big fan still am a big fan going to continue to follow all of your work uh think about what we spoke about today the only asset that you have is really you uh and uh maybe take a bit of time to slow down and consider why you're chasing something that has always been an illusion uh I love you all for listening and I will see you next time

야니스 바루파키스의 자본주의는 죽었고 더 공정하고 평등한 사회를 상상하며 자막 [음악]  안녕하세요, 잘 지내세요.잘 지내세요.저와 함께해 주셔서 감사합니다.환영합니다.아시겠지만, 저는 기쁩니다.아닙니다.아니요, 아니요, 아니요.저는 기쁩니다.아마도 이걸 모르실 수도 있겠지만, 음, 축구 팬들이 경기하는 걸 보는 방식을 아시죠?네, 경제 위기 때쯤이면 어땠을까요?당신의 경기를 지켜보면서 당신이 하는 일에 매료되었습니다.저는 구글에서 일했고, 구글에서 신흥 시장을 운영하고 있었는데, 바로 위기가 닥쳤을 때였습니다.저는 매우 흥미로운 입장을 취했습니다.제 팀은 기본적으로 가능한 한 도움을 주는 것이 좋겠다고 결정했습니다.기업의 입장에서는 매우 특이한 입장이었죠.그러니까 신흥 시장 중에서 그리스에서 배울 점이 있었던 곳은 어디였을까요?저는 실제로 그리스에 여러 번 가서 기업과 사업체들과 이야기를 나누려고 했습니다.그러다가 당신을 관찰하기 시작했고, IMF와 협상하는 동안 당신이 하는 일을 배우기 시작했습니다. 미국 재무부와의 경기였고, 정말 흥미진진한 경기였습니다. 꽤 많은 골을 넣었죠. 그래서 저는 열렬한 팬입니다. 정말 열렬한 팬입니다. 시간을 내주셔서 정말 감사합니다. 고맙다고 말씀드리는 게 참 좋네요. 그럴 때 정말 재밌었을 거예요. 정말 최악의 상황이었지만, 누구와도 다르게 해냈다고 생각합니다. 그에 대해 조금 말씀해 주시겠어요? 저는 다른 흥미로운 주제로 넘어가고 싶습니다. 이제 다른 주제로 넘어가야겠지만, 제가 아는 만큼 사람들이 당신을 알게 되기를 바랍니다. 그래서 그런 경험은 어떠셨나요? 기본적으로 파산한 나라를 운영하시는데, 모두가 공격하고 있고, 당신은 기본적으로 방어하려고 하면서 조금씩 이득을 얻고 몇 골을 넣으려고 하는 거죠. 그에 대해 말씀해 주시겠어요? 나라의 파산은 우연이 아니었습니다. 제가 당선된 유일한 이유는 나라가 파산했기 때문입니다. 저는 정치인이 될 생각이 전혀 없었습니다. 저는 경제학자입니다. 어느 순간부터 괴짜가 되어 소리를 지르기 시작했습니다. 왜냐하면 음 가장 파산한 유럽 국가가 인류 역사상 가장 큰 규모의 대출을 받았는데, 처음에는 파산할 정도로 낮았던 소득을 더욱 폭락시키는 조건으로 말입니다. 그래서 이것이 기본 논리에 어긋난다는 것을 깨닫는 데는 많은 시간이 걸리지 않습니다. 그리고 저는 개인적으로 매우 명확한 플랫폼을 가지고 있었습니다. 제가 지지했던 정당은 이 플랫폼을 채택했다고 합니다. 그래서 그와 함께 출마하기로 동의했습니다. 그 플랫폼은 매우 간단했습니다. 빚을 갚을 수 없다면, 그것은 헤어컷이거나, 연장과 가장을 통해 영속화됩니다. 그리고 IMF, 유럽 중앙 은행, 유럽 위원회 베를린 등의 권력자들은 우리가 파산하지 않은 척하는 데만 관심이 있었고, 그렇게 할 수 있는 유일한 방법은 연장과 가장을 통해 G를 길 아래로 걷어차는 것입니다. 제가 유권자들에게 제시한 제안은 당신이었습니다.아시다시피, 만약 여러분이 나에게 투표하고 내가 재무부 장관이 된다면, 나는 다른 어떤 신용카드 계약서에도 서명하지 않을 것입니다. 그래서 충돌이 있을 것입니다. 음, 그래서 재밌었나요? 네, 재밌었지만 동시에 완전한 비극이었습니다. 음, 사람들은 실제로 굶주리고 있었고, 길거리의 사람들은 고통받고 있었고, 음, 집에서 사람들은 절망에 빠져 사유화하고 있었고, 자살률은 두 배 이상 증가했습니다. 음, 우리는 진정한 인도주의적 위기에 처해 있었기 때문에 웃을 일이 아니었지만, 세계에서 가장 강력한 금융가와 기관에 대해 "서명하지 않을 거야"라고 말할 수 있다는 것은 어느 정도 분노를 불러일으키는 일이었나요? 네, 그랬습니다. 음, 그리스의 많은 사람들에게도 매우 해방적이었습니다.  왜냐하면 사람들이 깨닫지 못하는 가장 놀라운 점은 우리가 소수 정부였고 우리 정당이 36%의 득표율을 얻었다는 것입니다. 선거 제도상 의회에서 절대 다수를 확보해야 정부를 구성할 수 있었지만, 예를 들어, 우리가 선출되었을 때 우리와 함께한 국민의 약 40%가 있었습니다.음, 절반에 가깝지도 않고 세계에서 가장 강력한 기관과 충돌하기 위해서는 50% 플러스 1이라도 충분하지 않습니다. 적어도 60%의 국민이 우리와 함께해야 합니다. 그리고 제가 장관으로 있던 그 6개월 동안 우리는 대다수의 그리스인을 희생시키면서 가장 강력한 기관과 충돌했음에도 불구하고 우리가 가진 지지의 양을 늘릴 수 있었다는 점이 매우 놀랍습니다. 7월에 우리가 선출된 지 5개월 후, 6개월 후, 7월 5일에 실시한 국민투표에서 환상적인 62% 지지율을 기록했습니다. 우리는 좋을 때나 나쁠 때나 국민을 우리와 함께 이끌어 왔습니다. 비극적으로도 국민투표 당일 밤, 당시 총리였던 제 동료가 항복했고 저는 사임했습니다. 그게 전부입니다. 다른 말로 어떻게 표현해야 할지 모르겠습니다. 이것이 우리 세계의 현실이라는 것이 슬프고 우리 세계의 현실은 가장 큰 금융 기관들이 끊임없이 모든 사람을 빚에 빠뜨리고 있고 일반 대중조차도 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 알지 못한다는 것입니다.그게 1위입니다.아니요, 2위입니다.실제로 입장을 표명하고 "알다시피, 그리스인 2명 중 1명이 일자리를 잃었던 때를 기억합니다.아니요, 그 수치가 공개적으로 발표되었는지는 모르겠지만 기본적으로 국가의 소득이 삭감되었고, 제 기억이 맞다면 일하고 있던 사람들조차도 급여의 3분의 2, 때로는 절반을 받았습니다.다른 방법이 없었기 때문입니다.정치인들은 슬프게도 거의 일어서서 "우리는 이것을 인도적 위기라고 하지 않을 것입니다.당신이 옳게 말했듯이 우리는 우리 국민을 상대로 일하지 않을 것입니다.그게 1위입니다."라고 말하는 사람은 거의 없습니다.두 번째와 세 번째는 제가 말해야 할 내용인데, 저는 열렬한 독자이고 당시에 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 이해하기 위해 엄청나게 많이 읽었습니다. 그리스에 대해 많은 글이 쓰였고, 당신의 정책에 대해서도 많은 글이 쓰였습니다. 대부분은 일종의 허구였습니다. 사람들이 그리스가 지금의 상황에 처한 이유와 현재 정책을 혼동했고, 그 이유는 그저 엉망이었지만 당신은 확고한 입장을 고수하며 "이건 정치가 아니다"라고 말했습니다. "이건 거의 영웅적인 일입니다. 아니, 영웅적이지 않았습니다. 제가 정치인이 아니었기 때문에 정치 경력에 관심이 없었기 때문입니다. 제가 장관직을 사임한 날, 제가 좋아하는 일이 아니었기 때문에 안도감을 느꼈습니다. 마치 집안일 같았습니다. 제가 계속 이렇게 말하는데 사람들은 제가 이렇게 말하는 것을 좋아하지 않지만 저는 계속 이렇게 말합니다. 밤에 쓰레기를 버리는 것과 같습니다. 사실 그렇습니다. 많은 쓰레기입니다. 누군가는 해야 하고 당신은 제정신이 아닙니다. 공직에 있지만 그들이 당신을 허용하지 않을 때 나는 장관이 되기 위해 머물지 않을 것이고 유럽 연합 회의에서 다른 재무 장관들과 유럽 그룹 회의, 심지어 아테네의 내각 동료들과 함께 내가 다른 누구도 갖지 못한 자유를 가지고 있다는 것을 깨달은 순간이 있었습니다.왜냐하면 나는 경력에 관심이 없었기 때문입니다.정치인으로서의 경력에 ​​관심이 있다면 당신은 절대적으로 시스템에 묶여 있습니다.PES는 당신에게 그들의 노선을 매우 명확하게 알려주거나 당신이 나가는 것에 관심이 없다면 당신은 당신의 생각을 말하고 사람들이 당신을 위해 투표한 것을 할 자유가 있다는 것을 알고 있습니다.그러므로  그러므로 그런 의미에서 그렇습니다.하지만 반면에 나는 악마화되었고 당신이 옳습니다.음 악마화의 서사가 있었습니다.음 왜곡의 난독화 저는 월스트리트 저널이나 파이낸셜 타임즈가 나에 대해 쓴 것에서 나 자신을 알아볼 수 없었습니다.음 그것은 내 견해가 아니었습니다.내가 말한 것이 아니었지만 광범위하게 보도되었고 당신은 알다시피 나는 공식적인 기관의 가짜 뉴스의 파급 효과를 알아차렸죠. 아시다시피, 그 매체 중 하나가 제가 말하지 않은 것에 대해 완전한 허구를 게재했고, 갑자기 그것이 사실인 것처럼 전 세계에 보도되었고, 그게 사실이 아니라는 사실을 언론에 알리는 것이 가능했습니다. 실제로는 말하지 않았습니다. 네, 네, 물론이죠. 그것은 선정적인 뉴스이기 때문에 그들은 논쟁의 여지가 있는 이야기를 원하고, 만약 당신이 '하지만 저는 이것을 말하지 않았습니다'라고 말한다면, 그것은 그들이 보도하기에 충분히 흥미롭지 않다고 생각합니다. 그리고 또한 그것은 양적 효과가 질적 효과로 이어진다는 것입니다. 따라서 모두가 같은 것을 보도한다면, 그들이 보도한 내용 중 일부를 안다면그것들은 센세이션조차 아니었고, 잘못된 사소한 세부 사항이었지만, 모두가 같은 것을 보고했기 때문에 내가 나서서 그것을 반박했을 때 그로 인해 발생할 뉴스는 오 뷰이스가 그것을 철회하고 있습니다.아니요, 철회하지 않을 겁니다.제가 그것을 공개한 적이 없기 때문입니다.어쨌든 처음부터 말한 적이 없습니다.그래서 제가 또 다른 것에 대해 들었을 때, 저는 서론에서 그 시스템이 없는 세상에 대한 허구를 쓰고 있다고 말했습니다.그것은 정말 영리합니다.알다시피, 이것이 바로 사실에 대해 이야기하지 않고도 세상에 알리는 방법입니다.물론 조금은 할 수 있지만, 그렇지 않고도 우리는 이 모든 것이 없는 세상을 상상한다면 어떻게 할 수 있는지 말할 수 있습니다.그리고 저는 청취자들에게 그것을 안내하고 싶습니다.이 책은 모든 청취자에게 강력히 추천할 만한 책입니다.그리고 우리는 잠시 후에 그것에 대해 이야기할 것입니다.하지만 경제학을 잘 이해하지 못하는 사람들을 위해 먼저 사실을 정리해 보겠습니다.저는 오늘날 우리 세계의 현실부터 시작하고 싶습니다.저는 무엇부터 시작하고 싶습니다. 부채의 현실은 우리가 생각하는 통치 체제의 현실에 따릅니다.자본주의, 사회주의 등등.그런 다음 더 깊이 들어가서 지난 몇 년 동안 세상이 어떻게 변했는지 말해 보겠습니다.지금의 세상을 단계별로 그려본 다음, 여러분이 꿈꾸는 그 허구의 세상에 대해 이야기해 봅시다.그러니 부채에 대한 생각부터 시작하겠습니다.거의 모든 금융 기관,중앙 은행,연방 정부,IMF 등을 포함한 매우 큰 기관들은 말 그대로 전 세계 모든 사람에게 엄청난 빚을 지고 있습니다.거의 완전히 갚을 수 없는 빚입니다.갚을 수 없다는 것을 알면서도 여전히 이런 짓을 하고 있습니다.왜 그럴까요?왜 오늘날 시행되고 있는 그 시스템은 누구에게 도움이 될까요?진지하게 대답하기 전에 먼저 할리우드식으로 시작하겠습니다.대부 시리즈의 첫 번째 영화에서 아주 처음에 대부 1은 결혼식으로 시작합니다.대부의 딸이 결혼하고 그의 서재에 이런 장면이 있는데, 정원에서 축하 행사가 열리고 결혼식 파티가 펼쳐지고 대부는 미성년자나 미성년자 이탈리아 가족의 수장 중 한 명을 맞이합니다.이탈리아계 미국인 가족이 그에게 부탁을 합니다.그의 딸이 누군가에게 학대를 당했고  그는 대부에게 무릎을 부러뜨리거나 죽이거나 하는 교훈을 가르쳐 달라고 부탁합니다.정확히 무슨 부탁인지는 기억나지 않지만 그에게 돈을 주겠다고 제안합니다.대부는 기분이 상하며 "당신이 나에게 이 일을 하라고 제안하는 거냐?아니, 내가 그렇게 할 거야. 그러면 당신은 내 빚을 지게 될 거야.빚은 권력이야.이게 바로 권력이야.2015년에 IMF와 협상할 때 이런 생각이 들었습니다.은행가 등 그들에게 일어날 수 있는 최악의 일은 진지하게 말해서 그들에게 일어날 수 있는 최악의 일은 내가 어떻게든 보물을 발견하고 3000억 달러의 빚을 지고 그들에게 주었다면 그것은 그들의 악몽이었을 것입니다. 네, 2015년에 uh gre의 채권자들과의 협상에서 어려웠던 점은 그들이 돈을 돌려받고 싶어하지 않았다는 것입니다. 그들은 우리가 영구적으로 빚을 지고 파산하게 하기를 원했습니다. 왜냐하면 그것은 그들에게 엄청난 권력을 주었고 왜 오늘날 그리스를 보면 이 영구적인 파산으로 인해 그들이 우리의 공항과 항구를 빼앗아 사실상 모든 자산을 무료로 빼앗고 영원히 계속할 수 있었는지 알 수 있습니다. 아시다시피 우리는 프랑스, ​​독일, 영국, 물론 미국에서 무기를 끊임없이 사고 있습니다. 그래서 당신이 누군가에게 빚을 지고 그들을 당신의 빚에 빠뜨리고 대부처럼 그렇게 한 다음 당신은 봉건 영주가 됩니다. 아주 간단하지만 이제 진지하게 대답하겠습니다. 진지하게요. 자본주의에서 부채의 역할에 대한 적절한 경제학적 관점을 제시하겠습니다. 저는 항상 봉건제와 자본주의를 비교하고 대조하면서 이 설명을 시작합니다. 봉건제에서는 생산이라는 순서가 있었기 때문입니다. 농민들은 땅을 일구고 밀, 옥수수, 감자를 생산했습니다. 수확이 시작되면 분배가 있었습니다. 영주는 보안관을 농민들에게 보내 영주의 몫을 요구했습니다. 생산이 이어지고 분배가 이어졌습니다. 마지막으로 금융이 있었습니다. 금융은 영주의 몫이 어떤 형태로든 너무 커서 영주와 그의 추종자들이 먹을 수 없었기 때문에 그 중 상당 부분이 잉여였고 영주는 그것을 인근 시장에서 팔아 금융화한 다음 그 돈으로 돈을 빌려주었습니다. 생산, 분배, 금융이라는 순서가 있었습니다. 자본주의는 무엇보다도 땅이 상품화되고 구획되어 울타리로 둘러싸여 전 농민에게 임대되면서 순서가 역전되었습니다. 전 보안관에게 임대되었을 수도 있습니다. 원시 기업가로 활동했던 사람에게 이 음 원시 기업가는 노동자에게 임금을 지불하기 위해 지주에게 임대료를 지불해야 했습니다. 씨앗을 미리 지불할 돈이 없었기 때문에 빌려야 했습니다. 그래서 금융이 먼저 있었고 그 다음에 분배가 있었습니다. 왜냐하면 노동자에게 일주일이나 하루에 한 덩어리의 빵을 주어 일하게 하겠다고 말할 때 임금을 알기 때문입니다. 이것은 아직 생산되지 않은 잉여를 노동 자본과 임대료를 받는 지주 사이에 분배하는 것입니다. 그래서 봉건제에서는 생산 분배가 있었습니다. 금융이나 부채, 자본주의에서는 부채 분배가 있었습니다. 생산은 마지막에 왔습니다. 이제 이 역전은 거대한 생산력을 해방했지만 또한 부채를 생산 과정의 중심으로 만들었습니다. 왜냐하면 부채가 다른 모든 것보다 먼저 발생했기 때문입니다. 그래서 은행가들은 성장 엔진에 연료를 공급하는 데 필수적이 되었습니다.자본주의와 그들이 빚을 갚는 이유는 생산이 일어나기 전에 빚이 먼저 발생하기 때문입니다. 그것은 모두 허구의 돈입니다. 그래서 은행가들은 그래서 은행가들은 사실상 존재하지 않는 돈의 당좌대월 시설을 제공했습니다. 마치 흑마술처럼 아직 생산되지 않은 돈을 만들어냈습니다. 그래서 은행에 가서 100달러를 받았을 때,000달러 또는 백만 달러로 부동산을 구입하거나 비누를 수리하거나 무엇이든 그 돈이 다른 사람의 저축에서 나오지 않는다면 그것은 스프레드시트에 있는 숫자일 뿐입니다. 그것은 허공이나 뜨거운 공기일 뿐입니다. 그 돈이 당신에게로 흘러가 생산적인 용도로 사용되기를 바랍니다. 생산량을 창출하고 가치를 생산하여 미래에 효과적으로 상환할 수 있도록 합니다. 미래에 상환할 수 있고 은행은 미래에 상환하여 좋은 시기에 이것이 잘 작동하는 동안 그것을 유지할 수 있습니다. 은행가들은 존재하지 않는 더 많은 돈을 빌려줄 인센티브를 가지고 있습니다. 사실상 미래에서 빌려와 미래에서 가져오는 것입니다. 아직 생산되지 않은 돈이나 생산된 가치를 현재로 가져옵니다. 잘 작동할수록 은행가들에게 더 많은 이익이 됩니다. 어느 시점에서 그들은 더 많은 일을 할 것입니다. 그들은 미래에서 너무 많이 빌려 현재가 미래에 상환할 수 없을 때 충돌이 발생합니다. 이것이 중앙 은행이 있는 이유입니다. 충돌은 주기적이지만 지속적이지 않기 때문입니다. 그것은의 특징입니다. 자본주의는 제가 설명한 이유 때문에 우연이 아닙니다. AE에 여러 번 왔습니다. 1929년에 최악의 경제 위기가 있었습니다. 아시다시피 1929년 이전의 호황의 20년대는 에디슨과 포드 등과 같은 최초의 대규모 네트워크 기업의 결과였습니다. 엄청난 양의 자본이 필요했기 때문에 거대한 은행, 은행 카르텔이 모여 존재하지도 않는 돈을 만들어내어 그들에게 주었고, 이것이 합리적인 과잉과 변화의 재고를 만들어냈습니다. 그래서 모든 것이 1929년에 끝났습니다. 뉴딜 정책이 브르타뉴 우즈에서 시작되었습니다. 전쟁 후 뉴딜 정책을 국제적으로 확대했고, 브론 우즈가 말한 뉴딜 정책의 조항 중 하나는 은행가들이 더 이상 이런 일을 할 수 없다는 것입니다. 자본 통제가 있고 지루한 은행업이 있습니다. 은행가들은 프랭크 루셀트와 브르타뉴 우즈에 의해 병 속의 지니처럼 던져졌습니다. 1971년 8월 15일 닉슨 쇼크 1971년 모든 것이 폭발했습니다. 영국 우즈를 모두에게 설명해 봅시다. 이것은 기본적으로 돈을 금에 묶는 것입니다. 준비금, 기본적으로 은행은 알다시피 설명할 수 없습니다. 1929년까지 인쇄된 돈, 즉 종이 돈의 양이 모든 중앙은행 금고에 있는 금의 양과 연계되었다고 합니다. 그것은 잘 작동하지 않았습니다. 물론 민간 은행이 대출을 하면 그것이 돈이 되고 금의 양과 돈의 양은 완전히 분리됩니다. 비록 형식적으로는 법적으로 금 본위제가 있지만 말입니다. 이 제도는 1929년에 붕괴되었고 러셀이 1933년에 들어와 금 본위를 사실상 종식시키고 금 본위제가 그 자체의 닻이라고 말합니다. 하지만 은행가들은 국가의 허가 없이는 돈을 만들어낼 수 없습니다. 사실상 은행가들이 민간 자금으로 얼마나 많은 돈을 만들 수 있는지에 대한 심각한 제한이 있었습니다.뉴딜은 본질적으로 연방 정부가 두 가지 역할을 하는 것이었습니다.첫째는 실업을 흡수할 만큼 상품과 서비스에 대한 수요 수준을 충분히 높이는 것이었습니다.이것이 사업 프로그램입니다.이것은 뉴딜의 재정 부분, 투자 부분입니다.두번째는  두번째는 은행가들을 효과적으로 제약하여 은행가들이 공중에서 돈을 만들어내는 과정을 통해 결코 만들어내지 못한 적절한 가치를 만들어내지 못하게 하고 미래에 폭발을 일으킬 수 없도록 했습니다.1944년 전쟁이 끝나갈 무렵, 미국은 끝나지 않았습니다.미국과 영국, 캐나다는 노르망디를 침공하려 하고 있었습니다.노란드 침공과 동시에 있었지만 전쟁은 연합군이 승리할 것이라는 것이 분명했습니다.로즈벨트는 뉴햄프셔에서 우즈에서 브론 우즈 회의를 소집했습니다.긴 이야기를 짧게 하자면, 그것이 한 일은 뉴딜을 전 세계로 확대하고 달러를 금본위제로 만들었기 때문에 이론적으로 달러는 전환 가능했습니다.35 이론상 달러는 온스당 달러였고 실제로 달러는 세계 시스템의 닻이었고 은행가들은 자본 통제로 제자리에 머물렀습니다. 주식 시장에서 베팅하는 것에 대한 금지가 예상되었고 과도한 돈과 과도한 St를 만드는 것에 대한 효과적인 금지가 예상되었습니다. 1971년까지 1971년에 그 시스템은 끝났습니다. 이 전체 시스템은 미국 경제가 흑자를 낼 것이라는 가정에 기반했기 때문입니다. 달러가 통화가 될 것이라는 가정 하에 전 세계의 나머지 지역에 대한 흑자. 글로벌 통화 환율이 고정될 것이고 이를 고정된 상태로 유지할 방법은 실제로 말하거나 기록된 적이 없지만 유럽이나 일본에 지불 균형 문제가 있을 때 미국의 흑자는 일본과 유럽을 안정시키기 위해 어떻게든 일본이나 유럽으로 처리될 것이라고 가정했습니다. 마셜 플랜은 그 한 예입니다. 미국이 1960년대에 미국 다국적 기업의 이익에 반하여 일본 수입품, 자동차, 전자제품 등에 시장을 개방한 방식은 미국의 흑자가 어떻게 되었는지에 대한 또 다른 예입니다. 일본 경제를 안정화하기 위해 사용되었는데, 달러화된 세계 시스템은 누군가가 안정화해야 했기 때문입니다.흑자 국가였던 미국은 그렇게 했지만, 아시다시피 1960년대 중반부터 베트남 전쟁과 엄청난 비용이 들었던 대사회 정책 때문에 미국은 적자 국가가 되었고 시스템은 1971년에 붕괴되었습니다.전 세계적으로 많은 달러가 유통되었기 때문입니다.달러가 세계 경제의 중심이었기 때문입니다.닉슨 행정부 사람들, 폴 불러 같은 사람들, 그 행정부의 일원이었던 사람들, 존 코넬리 같은 사람들, 닉슨의 재무 장관이었던 사람, 그 전에 LBJ와 함께 일했던 사람, 그 사람이 민주당에서 공화당으로 바꾼 사람들, 그렇죠.매우 명확한 선택입니다. 우리는 경제를 팽창시켜 달러 가치를 잃게 할 것입니다. 비자 대 엔화, 도제 마르크화 등으로 미국 부채를 효과적으로 줄이기 위해서입니다. 그러나 미국이 달러가 평가절하되었을 당시 패권을 유지한 방법은 적자를 늘리는 것이었습니다. 이것은 매우 역설적입니다. 독일 재무 장관이 독일이 적자라는 것을 깨닫는다면 즉시 브레이크를 밟고 적자를 줄이려고 합니다. 미국이 한 일은 적자를 늘리고 가속화하겠다고 말하는 것이었습니다. 네, 적자를 늘리면 누가 그 비용을 지불할 것입니까? 나머지 세계는 어떻게 지불할 것입니까? 나머지 세계는 미국에 물건을 판매하여 얻은 이익을 뉴욕으로 보내 투자할 것입니다. 닫힌 피드백 루프가 있지만 그렇게 하려면 월가를 풀어줘야 했습니다. 월가가 원하는 것은 무엇이든 하도록 허용해야 했습니다. 그래서 본은 끝났습니다. 우즈, 은행에 대한 제한이 끝났습니다. 은행은 이제 1997년부터 원하는 것은 무엇이든 할 수 있고 1920년대 모델로 돌아갈 수 있습니다. 그 돈은 허공에서 존재하지 않았고 2008년까지 효과가 있었습니다. 금융화 때문에, 아시다시피, 실제로 존재했던 자본주의와 아무 관련이 없는 엄청난 양의 돈이 어느 시점에 2009년의 위기인 눈사태로 이어졌습니다. 일반인이 이해하기 쉽게 설명해 보겠습니다. 제가 틀렸다면  틀렸다면 바로잡아 주세요. 아시다시피 그 이후로 기본적으로 우리는 은행이 수요에 따라 돈을 창출할 수 있다는 생각으로 돌아갔습니다. 알겠습니다. 저는 이 집을 꿈꾸고 있습니다. 집을 살 돈이 없습니다. 알다시피, 우리는 기본적으로 돈이 필요하지 않으면 빌리면 된다는 일종의 마법 공식을 만들었습니다. 알겠습니다. 돈을 빌리면 집은 있지만 실제로 빌리는 것은 아닙니다. 제가 하는 일은 손가락을 튕기면 돈이 갑자기 생성됩니다. 내 은행 계좌에 돈이 들어왔습니다. 전에는 존재하지 않았습니다. 유일한 문제는 이 마법의 공식이 은행을 중간에 끼어 넣고 은행이 손가락을 튕기면 10% 더 청구해야 한다고 말한 것입니다. 그 이후로 모두가 달려가서 10% 더 갚으려고 합니다. 사실 그보다 더 심각합니다. 1975년, 73년, 74년, 75년 이후에 시작된 금융화는 담보부채권(CDO)의 옵션의 시작이었습니다. 그들이 시작한 일은 은행가의 기준으로도 상당히 터무니없는 것이었습니다. 은행가인 제가 당신에게 가서 "저는 집을 사고 싶습니다. 100만 달러를 드리겠습니다."라고 말하면 당신은 제가 당신에게 갚을 수 없을까 봐 걱정했을 것입니다. 하지만 그들은 그 두려움을 극복했습니다. 그들은 갚을 수 있을지 신경 쓰지 않는 방법을 찾았기 때문에 두려움을 극복했습니다. 그들이 하는 일은 다음과 같습니다.어, 내가 당신에게 가서 백만 달러를 요구할 텐데, 당신은 지금 당신이 가지고 있는 그 빚, 어, 담보가 있는 그 빚, 내가 산 집, 바로 그 빚을 내게 줄 거에요. 당신은 즉시 그것을 아주 작은 조각으로 자르고 다른 빚도 작은 조각으로 자르고 미국 정부 빚, 즉 미국 국채, 일본 정부 빚, 어, 회사 빚, 어, 다른 가구주의 빚, 어떤 사람들은 저보다 돈이 많고, 더 안전한 채무자, 어, 나보다 덜 안전한 채무자, 그래서 당신은 당신이 준 모든 빚을 잘게 ​​자르고, 그것들을 완전히 잘게 쪼개고, 작은 상자를 가져다가 이것의 조각들을, 저것의 조각들을, 다른 조각들을, 그리고 이것을 주식이나 채권을 파는 것과 같은 방식으로 파는 거예요. 이 상자 안에는 여러 정부, 사람들이나 기업들의 빚, 다른 이자율, 다른 채무 불이행 가능성이 있는 빚 등이 들어 있고, 너무나 복잡해서 아무도 그 상자 안에 무엇이 있는지 몰랐어요. 심지어 상자를 만든 사람들조차도요. 하지만 그들이 그것들을 팔기 시작하자마자, 어, 그들은 엄청나게 팔리기 시작했어요. 케이크는 모든 것이 올라갔을 때 모든 것이 올라갔고 그런 것들도 포함해서요. 그래서 제가 여러분에게 말한다면, 여기 이 종이 한 장이 있다고요. 여러분은 그 안에 무엇이 있는지, 무엇인지 전혀 모르죠. 하지만 제가 말씀드리고 말씀드리자면, 이것은 단지 여기에만 있는 것이 아니라는 것을 제가 증명할 수 있습니다. 저는 이 종이를 10만 달러에 샀고, 이틀 전에 5만 달러에 샀던 사람에게서 샀습니다. 그리고 그 사람은 일주일 전에 1,000달러에 샀던 다른 사람에게서 샀습니다. 즉시 원하시죠? 하느님, 이렇게 1,000에서 5만, 100으로 올라갔어요.일주일에 000, 2주 안에 000이 되는 거죠. 그러니까 이런 일이 10년 동안 계속되고 이 종이 조각이나 여러 종류의 빚이 담긴 상자가 계속 늘어나면 모두가 원하게 될 거예요. 그러다가 이런 상자를 만드는 능력이 생겨서 돈을 인쇄하는 것과 마찬가지고 은행도 할 수 있게 됐어요. 그래서 제가 당신에게 대출을 받으러 갔는데 당신은 제가 갚을 수 있을지 전혀 신경 쓰지 않았어요. 사실 제가 당신에게 와서 대출을 요청하기를 기다리지도 않았는데 당신은 저를 찾아가 마치 약탈적 사채업자처럼 대출을 강요했어요. 당신에게 백만 달러를 줬어요. 받아주세요 받아주세요. 급여가 중단되는 것도 보고 싶지 않아요. 직장이 있든 없든 상관없어요. 정말 상관없어요. 제가 갚을 수 없다면 제가 갚아야 할 사람이 아니니까요. 제가 아주 작은 조각으로 잘라서 다른 상자에 넣어서 다른 사람에게 팔 거예요. 다른 사람이 그걸 가져가고 그들도 이런 관점을 가지고 있었어요. 이런 완전히 고지식하고 미친 믿음이 있었거든요. 이건 문제가 아니었어. 내 빚이 아주 작은 조각으로 잘게 쪼개져서 전 세계의 다른 상자에 분산되어 있었거든. 그래서 야니스가 빚을 갚지 못하더라도 아무도 크게 고통받지 않을 거야. 내가 갚아야 할 백만 달러가 아주 작은 조각으로 잘려 있어서 그 조각 중 하나가 갚지 못하더라도 사람들은 눈치채지 못할 거야. 하지만 모든 은행이 똑같은 짓을 하고 한 은행이 다른 은행의 CDO를 사고 있었을 때 파생상품을 알게 됐고 결국 2000년에 이런 상황이 벌어졌어. 숫자를 하나 알려줄게. 2000년의 총소득 총소득 GDP는 50달러 정도였고 50조 달러였지. 맞아. 50억 달러였어. 이 파생상품의 가치는 약 4550달러였지. 2007년까지 세계 GDP는 50달러에서 70달러로 50달러에서 70달러로 50달러에서 70달러로 50달러에서 800달러로 껑충 뛰었어. 세상에. 지구가 이들을 담을 만큼 크지 않아서 폭발했지. 그들은 2000년에 타버렸고 그때 우리는 새로운 1929년을 맞이했습니다. 단, 로즈벨트는 없었습니다. 불행히도 우리는 오바마, 오바마, 고든 브라운, 영국, 유럽 연합 등을 겪었고 지금은 2008년입니다. 맞죠? 지금은 2000년이 아닙니다. 2008, 2009년 아시다시피 위기가 해결되어야 할 때인 2009년 봄에 오바마는 백악관에 있었고 고든 브라운은 런던에 있었고 메르켈은 베를린에 있었고 등등 그들이 하기로 동의한 한 가지는 2009년 4월 런던에서 열린 G7 회의에서 하기로 동의한 한 가지는 모든 중앙 은행을 모아 은행을 재순환시키기 위해 다시 엄청난 양의 돈을 인쇄하는 것이었습니다. 제 생각에 그것은 자본주의가 죽은 순간이었습니다. 왜냐하면 저는 오늘날 우리가 경험하고 있는 일이 자본이 어디에나 있다는 매우 이상한 이론을 가지고 있기 때문입니다. 시장은 모든 것을 가지고 있고 모든 자본주의는 어디에나 있지만 이것은 자본주의가 아닙니다. 더 나쁜 것입니다. 저는 이것을 기술 피델리스라고 부릅니다. 왜 제가2009년 자본주의 역사상 처음으로 시스템이 아닌 경제가 사적 이익에 의해 움직이는 대신 중앙은행 돈에 의해 움직이는 큰 전환이 있었기 때문에 그렇게 말하는 겁니다. 시장, 특히 통화 시장은 중앙은행 돈에 완전히 중독되어 있습니다. 골드만삭스를 보면 골드만삭스의 유명한 지수가 있습니다. 수익성이 없는 기업의 가치를 나타내는 지수입니다. 기업은 이익을 내지 못합니다. 주가가 폭등한 이유를 살펴보면 왜 이익을 내지 못하는지 알 수 있습니다. 손실을 내고 있지만 가치는 계속 오르고 있습니다. 중앙은행이 돈을 찍어 시장에 뿌리고 있기 때문입니다. 주가가 배당금을 줄 곳이 어디인지 신경 쓰지 마세요. 주식이 오르는 것만 신경 쓰면 됩니다. 주식 거래소에 더 많은 돈이 돌면서 같은 수의 주식을 쫓기 때문입니다. 기업은 시중은행에서 돈을 빌리고, 시중은행은 중앙은행에서 돈을 빌려 자사 주식을 다시 사들이기 때문입니다. 실제 존재하는 경제와 금융 시장 사이의 완전한 분리는 암호화폐에서 100배 확대되지도 않습니다. 실제로 아무것도 생산하지 않지만 기본적으로 엄청난 돈이 몰려들어 쫓아가고 있습니다. 물론 오늘날 보시다시피 2008년 이후 중앙 은행이 수십조 달러를 인쇄하여 상업 은행에 주었습니다. 상업 은행은 돈을 벌기 위해 돈을 투자해야 합니다. 그들은 그들은 작은 사람들을 보고 '아니, 아니, 아니, 작은 사람들은 안전한 투자 대상이 아니니까 우리는 그들에게 돈을 주지 않을 거야. 우리는 그들에게 돈을 주지 않을 거야. 우리는 그들에게 돈을 빌려주지 않을 거야. 중소기업에 돈을 빌려주지 않을 거야. 실제로 돈으로 유용한 일을 할 수 있는 사람들에게. 그들은 전화를 들고 Apple에 전화하고 Volkswagen에 전화합니다. 지금 Apple과 Volkswagen의 문제는 그들이 저축을 가지고 있다는 것입니다. 그 자체로 우리가 살고 있는 경제에 심각한 문제가 있다는 신호입니다. 기업은 저축을 해서는 안 됩니다. 여러분과 저는 알다시피 가계는 저축을 해야 하고 기업은 투자를 위해 빌려야 합니다. 그래서 기업이 저축이 있다는 것은 중요한 일이라는 것을 알지만 어쨌든 구글이 이미 구글 애플을 소유하고 있을 때 그들은 이미 수십억 또는 수천억 달러의 저축을 가지고 있습니다. 왜 그들은 Bank of America나 City Group에서 돈을 원할까요? 왜 그들은 돈을 빌리고 싶어하지도 않지만 Bank of America는 그들에게 돈을 빌려주고 싶어합니다. Bank of America America는 중앙 은행에서 음의 이자율로 돈을 받습니다. 즉, 유럽 중앙 은행이나 Fai의 경우 0% 이자율입니다. 그래서 무료 돈입니다. 그들은 기업 부문의 친구들에게 전화해서 무료로 돈을 가지고 있다고 말합니다.돈은 0.1% 더 청구할 뿐이에요. 아시죠? 스프레드죠. 음, 이 돈을 우리 손에서 빼 주시겠어요? 은행원의 악몽은 돈이 있는데 그것을 놓지 못하는 거니까요. 그래서 구글과 FX에 있는 사람들은 "알았어, 다 보내. 응, 다 보내. 우리가 해줄게. 부탁할게."라고 말하고 그들은 저축이 있으니까 필요하지 않은 돈으로 뭘 할까요? 그들은 그 돈을 증권 거래소로 가져가서 구글이 구글 주식을 다시 사들이죠. 알파벳 주식을요. 아시죠? 애플이 애플 주식을 사고, 바곤이 애플을 사고, 폭스바겐 주식을 사고, 잔이 잔 주식을 다시 사들이죠. 그래서 주가가 오르는 거예요. 그들은 고통 없이 주가를 끌어올렸어요. 아무런 문제 없이요. 그들은 중앙은행에서 무료로 받은 돈을 사용해요. 어쨌든 그들이 지불하는 0.1%보다 훨씬 훨씬 훨씬 더 많이 오르죠. 그들의 급여는 주가에 따라 다르고, 그래서 그들은 많은 돈을 벌어서 맨해튼이나 베를린에 집을 사러 가죠. 집값이 오르는 거예요. 보통 사람들은 못 해요. 자신의 도시에서 살 여유가 없으면 불평등이 급증하고 이는 악순환이며 자본주의는 더 이상 수익을 낼 수 없기 때문에 어려움을 겪습니다. 중소기업은 어려움을 겪고 있으며 수익이 없습니다. 시장의 매력적인 부분에 참여하지 않는 회사는 수익을 내지 못하고 전체 주식이 오르기 때문에 주식이 오르지만 금융 시장은 오르지만 그들은 수익을 내지 못하고 갑자기 전체 시스템이 중앙은행 돈에 걸려버립니다. 자본주의는 두 가지 기둥이 있는 시스템이었습니다. 하나는 사적 이익입니다. 사적 이익에 의해 촉진되었지만 더 이상 그렇지 않습니다. 중앙은행 돈에 의해 촉진되었습니다. 두 번째는 자본에서 발생하는 모든 일이 어떤 시장에서 발생했다는 것입니다. 노동 시장, 상품 시장, 서비스 시장입니다. 이러한 시장은 항상 경쟁적이지 않았습니다. 모든 시장이 있었습니다. 자동차 산업은 경쟁적이지 않았습니다. 5~10개 회사가 있었지만 여전히 시장이었습니다. 이제 시장은 플랫폼에 의해 대체되고 있습니다. 아마존에 가면 알 수 있습니다.com 이것은 시장이 아니라 한 사람에게 속한 하나의 알고리즘과 같은 디지털 공간입니다. 사실상 J 기반입니다. 알고리즘은 소비자가 무엇을 보고 구매할지 결정하고 알고리즘은 무엇을 홍보할지, 홍보하지 않을지 결정합니다. 결국 이 플랫폼은 봉건 영주에게 속한 봉건 마을과 유사하며 봉건 영주의 허가를 받아 상업 활동이 이루어집니다. 그래서   그래서 제가 2008년 경제 위기가 1991년 공산주의를 종식시킨 것과 같은 방식으로 세상을 바꾸었다고 말하는 것입니다. 2008년 제가 서 있는 곳에서 지금 자본주의를 바꾸는 것은 흥미로운 일입니다. 제가 가장 싫어하는 사람들이 좌파 윙어라고 말할 때, 아시다시피 저는 좌파 윙어입니다. 아시다시피 우리는 사회주의자이기 때문에 자본주의를 전복할 것이라고 생각하며 이 세상에 왔습니다. 그래서 제 좌파 윙어들은 저와 같은 사람들로부터 자본주의가 그들에 의해 전복되기를 원하지 않았다는 말을 듣고 싶어하지 않습니다. 자본주의가 스스로 전복되었고 봉건주의라는 것을 만들어냈습니다. 사회주의가 아닙니다. 하지만 당신이 가진 질문은 다음과 같습니다. 우리가 이 모든 것을 아무런 토대 위에 세우고 있지 않다는 것, 돈이 허공에서 갑자기 생겨나서 실제로 필요하지 않은 사람들에게 빌려준다는 것, 그러면 아무도 그들이 갚는지 신경 쓰지 않는다는 것, 그들이 갚는지 안 갚는지 알면 우리는 그저 L일 뿐입니다. 우리는 미래에서 점점 더 많은 돈을 빌리고 있고, 한도가 없습니다. 수조 달러에 달합니다. 알다시피 국가들 스스로도 돈을 빌리고 있습니다. 제가 말하고자 하는 것은 사실 돈이 없다는 것입니다. 돈은 환상입니다. 기본적으로 돈은 돈입니다. 돈은 항상 환상이었습니다. 돈은 항상 환상이었습니다. 그것은 문제가 아닙니다. 문제는 그 환상이 유용했던 때가 있었고 실제 사물로 자신의 환상을 뒷받침할 수 있었다는 것입니다. 그리스어로 돈이라는 단어는 실제로 화폐의 이름인 nomisma는 상상한다는 의미의 동사 Nomo에서 유래했습니다. 아리스토텔레스는 고대 아테네 시대부터 화폐가 가치가 있다고 생각하기 때문에 가치가 있다는 것을 처음부터 파악했습니다. 고대 메소포타미아에서도 오늘날 이라크나 시리아가 첫 번째입니다. 문명의 첫 번째 음 진지한 경제 농업 경제 그때도 돈은 음 환상이었습니다.어떻게 작동했을까요?최초의 돈의 형태는 무엇이었을까요?통치자들은 노동자들에게 밭에서 일한 대가를 지불하기 위해 점토 조각에 숫자를 썼습니다.이것이 숫자가 발명된 방식이며 그 숫자는 수확이 끝날 때 받는 밀이나 옥수수 또는 그들이 생산한 무엇이든 수량에 해당합니다.그래서 그것은 IOU와 같았지만 이것들은 유리 조각이나 점토 조각입니다.음 그들은 수확이 끝날 때인 6개월, 8개월 후에만 상환할 수 있지만 농부는 당신이 아는 사람들을 사용하여 아이들을 위해 우유를 사러 갈 수 있었고 음 그리고 그것들은 양도 가능했기 때문에 양도 가능한 IUS는 돈이 시작된 방식이었습니다.알겠습니다.이 시스템이 작동하는 한 수확이 끝날 때까지적절한 양의 밀이 생산되어 그 점토 조각의 가치를 뒷받침했고, 그 시스템은 작동했습니다. 돈은 항상 환상이었지만, 그것이 금속이었을 때조차도 말입니다. 1971년 브르타뉴 우즈 체제가 끝난 이후 우리가 해 온 일은 금융이 경제를 장악하는 상황을 만든 것입니다. 생산, 산출물, 투자의 경제 생활을 촉진하는 역할을 하는 대신, 그들은 자본주의를 장악했습니다. 그들은 다른 사람들이 생산한 막대한 양의 가치를 착취하는 능력을 발휘하는 데 어려움을 겪었고, 2008년에는 시스템 효과가 폭발할 정도로 계속해서 그렇게 했습니다. 2008년 이후로 우리는 돈의 세계와 생산의 세계 사이에 완전한 단절을 겪었고, 지금은 아마존, 구글, 빅테크, 플랫폼이 사람들을 돈 없이 또는 돈을 받지 않고 생산하도록 하는 엄청난 힘을 가지고 있습니다. 지금  지금 생산의 세계에서 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 살펴보면, 많은 생산이 무료로, 돈 없이 이루어지고 있습니다. 사람들이 실제로 페이스북에 무언가를 업로드할 때 페이스북의 자본 스톡에 추가되지만 아무것도 얻지 못한다는 것을 우리는 알고 있습니다. 스스로를 되돌리고 아마존 창고에서 일하는 사람들이 있습니다. 시간당 15달러를 받는 불안정한 고용 노동자입니다. 해고되면 아무것도 받지 못하고 휴가도 없고 보험도 없습니다. 그래서 그들은 매우 적은 급여를 불안정하게 받거나 전혀 받지 못합니다. 즉, 우리 사회의 생산 능력과 실제로 그 물건을 사는 사람들의 능력 사이의 CM이 이 C가 훨씬 커지고 있으며 이 격차를 메울 수 있는 유일한 것은 중앙 은행을 통해 돈을 생산하는 국가입니다. 물론 이 돈은 매우 부유한 사람들에게 돌아갑니다. 왜냐하면 높은 헬리콥터 머니가 없고 기본 소득이 없기 때문입니다. 상업 은행이 매우 부유한 사람들에게 주어 맨해튼에 아파트를 사고 그 중 일부가 많은 사람들에게 흘러들기를 바라는 것입니다. 그 결과는 매우 불쾌한 사회입니다. 심지어 매우 부유한 사람들에게도 말입니다. 워렌 버핏, 게이츠, 지구상에서 가장 부유한 사람들 중 일부, 특히 미국에서는 불평등에 대해 심각하게 걱정합니다. 그들이 자선 활동을 하기 때문이 아니라 사회가 우리가 만들어내고 있는 이 모든 것에서 나오는 것은 매우 불쾌하고 잔인한 사회가 될 것이며, 그들은 매우 불안함을 느낄 것입니다. 그들은 게이트 게이트 뒤에 숨어서 살아갈 것입니다. 게이트 게이트는 게이트 커뮤니티에서 살아야 합니다. 그렇지 않으면 자신의 안전을 보장할 수 없습니다. 그래서 어떤 의미에서 우리가 살고 있는 세상에 대한 나의 비판은 불공평하다는 것이 아니라 비효율적이라는 것입니다. 우리가 자본주의를 넘어서 지속 불가능한 봉건주의의 디지털 버전에 더 가까운 것으로 나아가는 것이 비이성적이라는 것입니다. 우리는 지구를 죽이고 있습니다. 우리는 우리 자신을 분열시키고 있습니다. 우리는 생산할 수 있는 기술을 창조하고 있다고 생각합니다.사람들이 살 수 없는 것들, 우리가 향하는 방향에 대해 이야기하기 전에, 저는 최근의 다른 주요 사건을 다루고 싶습니다. 그래서 우리가 자본주의를 죽이고 있다는 것을 알 수 있도록, 우리는 정부 돈이 아닌 이익과 가치 중심의 돈으로 시장을 범람시키고 있습니다. 그리고 Co가 등장합니다. 코로나가 이 모든 것에 미친 영향은 무엇이었습니까? 저는 시청자 여러분, 또는 청취자 여러분께 Co가 새로운 것을 한 적이 없다고 말하면서 놀라게 할 것입니다. Co는 단순히 2008년 이후로 일어난 일에 터보차저를 걸었습니다. 저는 2050년이 되면 사람들이 자본주의가 죽은 순간으로 2020년이 아니라 2008년을 되돌아볼 것이라고 굳게 믿습니다. 왜냐하면 2020년에 무슨 일이 일어났는지 생각해 보면, 봉쇄와 함께 중앙은행이 더 많은 돈을 인쇄하기 시작했지만 이미 2008년에 시작했기 때문입니다. 정부는 무엇을 했나요? 제 말은, 정부가 한 일은 모두 중앙은행 돈으로 자금이 조달되었기 때문에 정부가 개입하여 근로자에게 공정한 낮은 제도를 제공하고 그들이 해야 했던 기업을 지원한 것은 좋은 일이었습니다. 재정 정책 구조, 과세 시스템 구조, 실물 경제 구조 외에는 대안이 없었고, 연방준비제도, 유럽중앙은행, 영국은행, 일본은행이 더 많은 돈을 인쇄하기 시작해서 시장이 침체된 게 아닌가요? 자본주의가 사실상 중단되었을 때 금융 시장이 급등했던 게 환상적이지 않나요? 네, 네, 비트코인도요. 사람들이 너무 많은 돈을 가지고 있어서 뭘 해야 할지 몰라서 뭐든지 샀죠. 자본주의 최악의 시기에 모든 게 랠리를 펼쳤죠. 그래서 저는 그 um Co가 양적으로만 영향을 미쳤다고 생각하지 않아요.  그게 나쁜 상황을 더 악화시켰죠. 정부와 중앙은행이 마치 두 개의 별개의 실체인 것처럼 말하는 이유를 설명해 주시겠어요? 음, 그들은 음, 유럽에서의 협정, 예를 들어 유럽 연합에서, 우리의 무한한 지혜 속에서 우리는 중앙은행을 만들었지만 유럽 중앙은행도 아니고 유럽 국가도 아니고 유럽 정부도 아닙니다. 중앙은행에 대해 생각해 보세요. 음, 하지만 우리는 그 뒤에 정부가 없습니다. 음, 그리고 우리는 중앙은행이 없는 정부가 있는 이유는 유럽 중앙은행이 헌장과 헌법에 따라 유로를 사용하는 정부에 자금을 지원하는 것을 허용하지 않기 때문입니다. EUR 은행은 미국에 있습니다. 또한 FED는 연방 정부로부터 독립적이라고 합니다. FED가 어느 정도 자율권을 가지고 있지만 적어도 미국에서는 논리의 방식이 있습니다. 연방준비제도는 미국 중앙은행이 유럽 중앙은행과 달리 미국 정부가 파산하는 것을 결코 허용하지 않을 것입니다. 유럽 중앙은행은 제 나라가 파산하도록 허용했지만 이탈리아가 파산할지 말지 알 수 있을 것입니다. 그래서 정부와 중앙에 대해 말하는 것입니다.은행들은 하나가 다른 하나로부터 독립적이라고 잠시라도 믿지 않지만 어느 정도 분리가 있습니다. 중앙은행을 소유한 사람은 누구이고 FED를 소유한 사람은 누구입니까?아, 매우 흥미로운 질문입니다.아무도 모르는 것이 있습니다.연방준비제도는 JP Morgan과 다른 은행가들에 의해 만들어졌습니다.왜냐하면 JB Morgan은 은행 위기가 발생할 때마다 동료 은행가들을 구제하는 데 지쳤기 때문입니다.20세기의 첫 10년 동안 J Morgan은 어느 시점에서 지쳐서 중앙은행에 모여서 "연방준비제도를 만들어서 우리가 서로를 구제할 수 있도록 하자"고 말했습니다.물론 아시다시피 그것은 연방 정부로 제시되었습니다.그래서 연방 정부라고 불리는 것입니다.연방 정부 기관입니다.결국 그것은 중앙은행이 아니기 때문에 중요하지 않습니다.은행은 은행이 아닙니다.은행에 구제금을 제공하는 국가 기관입니다.그게 거래의 핵심입니다.은행이 있을 때 그들은 돈을 인쇄합니다.기본적으로 기본적으로 국가의 돈은 돈의 3%만 인쇄합니다. 오 3% 오 오 오 오 오 오 나머지는 은행에서 인쇄한 거고 97%는 상업 은행에서 인쇄한 거야 오 와우, 아니 아니 내가 말하는 건 종이 돈에 대한 게 아니야 종이 돈은 FED에서 인쇄한 거야 맞죠?하지만 그건 돈의 3%에 불과해.오늘날은 훨씬 더 적고, 스타벅스에서 카드로 결제할 때마다 몰리는 돈의 약 1%일 거야.종이 돈이 아니야.은행 돈이고, 은행 돈은 허공에서 만들어내니까 중앙은행이 유일한 방법인 것 같아.중앙은행이 민간 은행에 영향을 미칠 수 있는 유일한 방법은 구제하지 않겠다고 위협하는 거야.은행 폭주가 일어나면 FED가 Bank of America나 City Group을 위협할 수 있는 유일한 방법이지.그들이 통제할 수 있는 거지만, 그들이 너무 커서 실패할 수 없다는 걸 감안하면, 음, 그건 실제로 믿을 만한 위협이 아니야.Bank of America의 훌륭한 사람들은 그들이 파산할 수 없다는 걸 알고 있거든.파산하면 미국이 파산할 테니까.그러니까 사실상 우리는 시스템을 가지고 있는 거야. 은행가들이 득세하고 있어요. 음, 그들은 그걸로 엄청난 돈을 벌고 있는데 실물 경제는 돌아가고 있고 대부분의 사람들은 자식과 손주들을 보면서 자신들보다 훨씬 더 나쁜 삶을 살게 될 젊은이들을 봅니다. 이러한 절망감, 미래에 대한 희망의 부족, 아시죠? 요즘 제가 가장 좋아하는 표현은 미래가 예전과 다르다는 거예요. 이것이 인종 차별을 부추기고, 포퓰리즘을 부추기고, 이것이 트럼프를 백악관에 오게 한 거예요. 이것이 불만을 조장하고, 음, 그리고 음, 이것이 우리 민주주의의 붕괴로 이어지고, 어디로 향하고 있나요? 더 나빠질까요, 좋아질까요? 변화가 있을까요? 무너질 때가 있을까요? 네, 무너질 때가 있겠지만, 그때까지 이르지 않았으면 좋겠어요. 왜냐하면 무너진다면 무슨 뜻인지 아시잖아요.거리에 피가 흐른다는 뜻이에요.미국 내전이 있었잖아요.폭력이 일어나기 쉬운 나라이고, 인류 전체에 미치는 영향 면에서도 매우 폭력적인 국가예요.그리스에서 경제가 완전히 붕괴되고 붕괴되는 모습을 직접 봤어요.의회에 나치가 있었고, 거리에 나치가 있었고, 사사를 든 나치 깡패들이 거리에서 사람들을 죽였어요.아니요, 그런 건 보고 싶지 않아요.하지만 예측은 상관없어요.저는 예측하는 일을 하지 않아요.날씨와는 달리 예측이 가능하고 예측해도 괜찮거든요.기상학자는 날씨를 예측하는 직업이잖아요.기상학자를 판단할 때는 날씨를 얼마나 잘 예측하는지에 따라 판단해야 하지만, 정치에 관해서는 기상학과는 달리 날씨는 적어도 우리가 날씨에 대해 어떻게 생각하는지 전혀 신경 쓰지 않아요.그래서 날씨에 집중하는 게 잘못되면 날씨가 바뀌지 않아요. 할 것이지만 사회에서 사회에 대한 우리의 예측은 우리의 행동을 바꾸고 따라서 사회를 변화시킵니다.따라서 예측하는 것이 아니라 옳은 일을 하는 것이 도덕적 의무입니다.이것이 제가 오늘날에도 정치에 참여하는 이유입니다.하지만 제가 말하고자 하는 것은 무엇입니까?우리의 말을 듣거나 보는 청취자를 위해, 시스템에서 그들이 무엇을 할지 아십니까?은행에 가서 최대한 많은 돈을 빌려 비트코인에 넣어야 할까요?솔직히 말해서 그것이 시스템이 작동하는 방식입니다.어, 알다시피, 제가 빚을 완전히 피해야 할까요?어, 아시다시피 우리는 실제로 우리를 위해 모든 것을 관리하는 단일 통화가 허구인 경제에서 살고 있습니다.실제로 존재하지 않으며 모든 사람의 삶에 영향을 미치고 있으며 당신이 옳은 말처럼 부자는 더 부자가 되고 가난한 사람은 고통받습니다.그것은 몇 달 전에 돌아가신 제 아버지를 생각나게 했습니다.어, 제가 아주 어렸을 때 그는 제 기억에 남는 말을 했습니다.그는 어, 제가 줄 수 있는 유일한 조언은 완전히 셔츠를 벗은 난민처럼 인생의 길을 걷고 있다고 상상하는 것입니다. 당신은 난민이고 어떤 해안의 어떤 배에 의해 발견되었고 당신은 바지 한 벌 외에는 아무것도 없을 것입니다.당신이 가지고 다니는 유일한 자본은 무엇입니까?당신의 교육, 당신의 교육, 일을 할 수 있는 능력, 당신의 학식, 당신의 수학 지식, 당신의 의학 지식, 무엇이든 당신의 인적 자본 그것을 개선하려고 노력하십시오.음, 피난처는 없습니다.비트코인은 피라미드와 같습니다.음, 당신이 아는 것처럼 음, 버니는 사기를 쳤습니다.음, 달러는 인플레이션이 발생할 수 있습니다.음, 주식 가치가 하락하거나 채권 수익률이 급등하고 채권 가격이 붕괴될 수 있습니다.음, 불안정한 시스템에서는 안전한 피난처가 없습니다.우리가 사는 시스템이 불안정합니다.이것이 우리 토론의 요점입니다.그러니 우리 자신을 개선하고 시스템을 개선하고 시스템을 변경해 봅시다.이것이 제가 쓴 이유입니다.또 다른 지금 다른 것에 대해 이야기해 봅시다. 그럼 인류의 최악의 적은 대안이 없다는 잘못된 믿음이고 제가 생각해 낼 수 있는 가장 희망적인 생각은 모든 것이 달라질 수 있다는 것입니다. 볼러가 캔디드라는 유머 가득한 소설을 썼을 때 그는 볼츠의 작은 책에서 캔디드의 가정교사였던 캐릭터 팡고스의 이미지를 떠올렸습니다. 팡고스는 이론을 가지고 있었습니다. 그의 이론은  그의 이론은 우리가 가능한 모든 가능한 세상에서 살고 있다는 것이었습니다. 이 세상은 끔찍할 수도 있고 짜증날 수도 있지만 그것은 가능한 모든 가능한 단어 중 하나입니다. 지금 제 견해는 정반대입니다. 네, 팡고스는 우리가 가능한 모든 가능한 세상에서 살고 있지 않다는 것을 완전히 틀렸습니다. 그렇습니다. 우리는 오류를 범할 수 있습니다. 우리는 종으로서 엄청난 단점과 악의 경향이 있습니다. 의심의 여지가 없으며 집단적으로나 개인적으로 어리석지만 그럼에도 불구하고 우리는 또한 놀라운 능력을 가지고 있으며 이 세상은 우리의 오류에도 불구하고 음 훨씬 더 나을 수 있었고 우리는 훨씬 더 나아질 수 있었습니다. 그래서 돈은 어떻게 작동해야 하는지, 중앙은 어떻게 해야 하는지 알고 있습니다. 은행은 어떻게 작동하나요?어떻게 작동해야 하나요?기업은 어떻게 작동해야 하나요?부족한 토지의 사용은 어떻게 처리해야 하나요?누가 소유해야 하고 누가 소유해서는 안 되나요?다시 생각해 봅시다.우리의 계획을 다시 생각해 봅시다.우선 버튼 하나만 누르면 우리의 유토피아적 사고방식에 따라 세상을 만들 수 있다는 것이 아니라, 사물이 어떻게 되었을지 다시 생각해 보지 않는 한, 우리는 팡거스처럼 우리가 가능한 모든 세상에서 최고의 삶을 살고 있다고 믿는 철장에 갇히게 될 것이고, 그것은 우리 자녀와 손자들에게 큰 위협이 될 것입니다.그러니 아시죠?내 말대로 행동하자.나는 앉아서 소설을 쓰기로 결심했다.나는 지금과 다른 대안을 설명한다.어떤 책에서 나는 독자에게 기업, 시장, 토지, 돈, 국제 무역, 이주, 정부, 민주주의 등에서 우리 사회 경제의 기본이 어떻게 작동할 수 있는지에 대한 청사진을 제공하려고 노력했다.쉬운 작업은 아니었고 얼마나 성공적이었는지에 대한 판단은 독자들에게 맡기겠지만 시도하는 것은 재미있었습니다. 그리고 제가 정말로 말해야 할 것은 그 책을 쓰는 것이 그리워요. 실제로 쓰기 위해서는 소설로 해야 했기 때문이에요. 왜 소설이 필요한가요? 제가 쓴 많은 내용에 대해 저 자신과 의견이 다르거든요. 아시다시피, 저는 아이디어를 생각해 내고, 그 아이디어에 동의하지 않으면 두 번째 아이디어를 생각해 내고, 그 아이디어에 동의하지 않아요. 그래서 저는 '내가 내용에 동의하지 않는데 어떻게 책을 쓸 수 있을까?'라고 생각했어요. 사람들이 소설을 쓰는 이유는 책에 다양한 등장인물을 넣을 수 있고, 각 등장인물에 대한 다른 관점을 제시하고 그들이 싸우게 할 수 있기 때문이라고 생각했어요. 정말 흥미롭죠. 그래서 이 소설에는 여러 명의 야니가 등장하는데, 서로 논쟁하는 내용이 있죠. 기본적인 것부터 시작해 볼까요?은행이 없는 세상을 말하는 거 맞죠? 당연히 은행도 없고 중앙은행도 없고 따라서 주식 시장도 없고 오, 중앙은행도 없고 중앙은행이 있어요. 알겠어요? 그래서 이게 어떻게 작동하는지 설명해 주세요. 제가 말했듯이 모두가 이걸 읽어야 해요. 세상이 어땠을지, 어땠을지, 어땠을지 아름다운 비전이에요. 하지만 시작해 볼까요? 은행은 없어요. 알겠어요. 기술 대기업도 없고 억만장자도 없어요. 어때요? 어떻게 보이나요? 어, 그렇게 표현해 주시겠어요? 저도 오 마이 갓, 전체주의 정권처럼 들리네요. 아니, 그렇지 않아요. 제가 말하는 건 알겠어요. 시장은 IR이에요. 대체 불가능한 시장은 생산자와 소비자의 활동을 조정하는 훌륭한 역할을 하지만, 문제가 많은 시장이 두 개 있어요. 하나는 이미 논의한 화폐 시장이고, 하나는 다시는 이 문제를 다루지 않겠습니다.  다른 하나는 노동 시장입니다. 노동 시장이라는 개념은 노동을 파는 사람이 있고, 노동을 사는 사람이 있다는 것입니다. 노동 시장에서 지금 왜 누군가가 내 노동력을 살 능력이 있어야 하고 왜 내가 내 노동력을 누군가에게 팔아야 합니까?결국 모든 사람이 기업가가 되고 싶어합니다.모두가 스스로 사업을 하고 싶어하기 때문에 자신의 상표를 누군가에게 파는 상황에서는 본질적으로 종속적인 위치에 있게 됩니다.자신을 다스릴 수 있는 능력입니다.그리고 저는 이것을 자유주의자로서 말하고 있습니다.게다가 우리는 시장의 자본주의를 가장 많이 옹호하고 자본주의를 옹호하는 사람들의 대가였던 아담 스미스를 보았습니다.아담 스미스는 주식회사에 완전히 반대했습니다.익명의 주주가 있는 회사, 즉 주식이 종이 조각과 같은 회사입니다.요즘은 주식 시장에서 익명으로 매매되는 전자 주식입니다.자본주의의 대가인 아담 스미스는 주식 시장에 반대했습니다.그 이유는 소유권과 사업 운영을 분리하면 시장을 지배하는 대기업으로 이어질 뿐이기 때문입니다.독점력을 만들어 소비자를 착취하고 혁신을 죽입니다.그것이 바로 아담 스미스입니다. 그 사람의 의견에 동의합니다. 알겠습니다. 아담 스미스가 시작한 것부터 시작해 봅시다. 우리는 유동적 소유권을 원하지 않습니다. 우리는 주식 시장을 원하지 않습니다. 주식 시장을 없애려면 어떻게 해야 할까요? 한 가지 방법은 아담 스미스 시대처럼 가족 소유의 기업을 갖는 것입니다. 하지만 우리는 지금의 기술로는 봉건주의와 같은 가족 소유의 자동차 회사를 가질 수 없습니다. 아넬리 가문은 자유롭지 못하고 효율적이지 못하며 특히 기술 분야에서는 제대로 작동하지 않습니다. 알겠습니다. 그렇다면 무엇이 문제일까요?대안을 바꾸려면 모든 직원이 조금씩 소유하고 주식 1주를 소유하는 법인을 만드는 것입니다. 네, 주식 1주, 저는 EnV Vision을 책에 담았습니다. 대학생이 대학에 등록할 때 받는 도서관 카드와 같습니다. 대학에 입학하면 도서관 카드를 받습니다. 매우 유용합니다. 도서관에서 책을 빌려서 대학의 컴퓨터 시스템에 등록할 수 있습니다. 이메일 계정을 사용하여 투표할 수 있습니다. 학생들은 수업에 참석할 수 있습니다. 임대할 수 없습니다. 임대할 수 없습니다. 구매할 수 있습니다. 대학을 졸업하면 판매할 수 있습니다. 반납해야 합니다. 이야기의 끝. 고용되었을 때 투표권이 하나씩 주어지고 회사의 모든 결정에 참여하는 법인이 있다고 상상해 보세요. 지금은 모든 사람이 같은 급여를 받아야 한다는 것을 의미하지 않습니다. 왜냐하면 당신과 저, 그리고 다른 100명의 사람들이 회사에 있고 놀라운 일을 하는 엔지니어가 필요하다면 우리 사이에 그 엔지니어에게 우리가 받는 것보다 훨씬 더 많은 돈을 지불하려는 인센티브가 생길 것이기 때문입니다. 동일 임금에 대한 주장은 동일 임금에 대한 주장입니다. 알겠습니다. 하지만 생각해 보면 그렇게 하는 순간 주식 시장이 생기지 않습니다. 주식은 사고팔 수 없기 때문에 주식이 없어지지 않습니다. 그리고 오늘날보다 훨씬 더 자유롭게 일하는 기업이 있고 너무 커지지 않기를 선택하는 기업이 있습니다. 모든 사람이 주식 1주와 1표를 갖게 되면 10개의 투표권을 가진 기업이 되고 싶지 않을 것입니다.000은 관리하기 매우 어렵기 때문에 장소에 있습니다. 이렇게 말하면, 만약 당신이 제너럴 일렉트릭이 그런 회사가 될 수 있는 곳을 안다면, 제너럴 일렉트릭의 직원들은 냉장고를 만드는 부서와 비행기 엔진을 만드는 부서, 이런 일을 하는 부서로 회사를 나누고 싶어할 것입니다. 그러면 그들은  그러면 그들은 그것을 이해할 수 있을 것입니다. 그들은 그렇게 할 동기가 생길 것입니다. 왜냐하면 그렇게 하면 그들에게 의미 있는 방식으로 사업을 운영하는 것이 더 쉬워질 것이기 때문입니다. 그래서 국가가 들어와서 회사를 해체하는 것이 아닙니다. 규제하는 것이 아닙니다. 당신이 하는 일은 기업법을 바꾸는 것입니다. 투표에 대한 주식 1주, 거래 불가라고 하면 갑자기 기업의 최적 규모가 작아집니다. 경쟁이 더 심해지고 주식 시장이 없어지고 기업은 주주의 이익을 위해 일하지 않습니다. 그들은 고객이나 직원의 이익을 위해 일하거나 국가, 경제의 이익을 위해 일합니다. 주주는 다른 직원입니다. 주주는 직원입니다. 음, 그리고, 그리고, 그리고 훨씬 작아질 것이고 그들은 그렇게 할 것입니다. 당신은 가지 않을 것입니다. 지금처럼 이렇게 엄청난 집중도를 갖기 위해서는 소수의 주주가 대기업을 소유한 상황에서는 시장 권력이 집중되지 않을 것입니다. 기업은 더 커지고 주식 소유권이 모든 곳에 생길 것이며 어디에서 일하는 모든 사람이 주식을 갖게 될 것입니다. 동시에 지금의 시스템을 살펴보면 중앙은행이 돈을 인쇄하여 은행가에게 주고 은행가가 친구들에게 주어 자신의 주식을 사게 하는 상황이 발생할 것입니다. 그런 일은 더 이상 일어나지 않을 것입니다. 왜냐하면 기업은 은행가의 친구들에게 속하지 않을 것이고 어쨌든 주식을 살 수 없을 것이기 때문입니다. 음, 저는 은행을 금지해야 한다고 말하는 큰 국가 사람이 아닙니다. 은행이 균형을 맞추기 위한 주식이 없고 중앙은행과 시민 사이에서 은행가를 배제한다면 은행을 금지할 필요조차 없을 것입니다. 지금 상상해보세요. 연방준비제도(Fed)에 상업은행에 주기 위해 돈을 인쇄하는 이유를 묻는다면 경제를 자극하기 때문이라고 대답할 것입니다. 상업은행이 기업에 주기를 바랍니다. 기업들이 사람들을 잘 고용할 텐데 왜 중개자, 상업 은행가를 없애고 중국 중앙은행이 지금 하고 있는 것처럼 디지털 통화, 즉 디지털 암호화폐를 만드는 일을 하지 않습니까?비트코인이 아닌 국가 통화로 디지털화하는 것입니다.연준이 달러를 디지털 달러로 바꾸었다고 상상해 보세요.모든 사람이 지갑을 갖게 된다는 뜻입니다.미국에 사는 모든 사람, 미국 거주자 또는 미국에서 사업을 하는 모든 사람이 중앙은행에서 지갑을 갖게 된다는 뜻입니다.중앙은행이 원한다고 가정해 보겠습니다.경제를 활성화하려면 기본 소득을 모든 지갑에 입금하는 게 왜 안 되는지 아시죠?맞죠?상업 은행을 거칠 필요가 없잖아요?맞죠?인플레이션이 발생하면 기본 소득으로 사람들에게 주는 크레딧 금액이 줄어들어요.그러니까 갑자기 모든 사람이 미국 거주자라는 이유만으로 자동으로 은행을 갖게 되는 거죠.연준이 있으니까요.모든 사람이 연준에 지갑을 갖고 있어요.오늘 결제하려면 뱅크 오브 아메리카에 가서 계좌를 개설해야 해요.그렇지 않으면 스타벅스에서 샌드위치를 ​​살 카드를 만들 수 없잖아요.하지만 연준이 모든 사람에게 디지털 UM 애플리케이션을 제공하면 상업 은행이 필요 없어요.연준이 있으니까요.제 생각에는 제 청사진에 은행이 없었어요.은행을 금지한 게 아니에요.그냥 은행이 존재할 이유를 주지 않은 거예요.주식을 매수할 자금을 조달할 수 없다면 주식은 더 이상 매수할 수 없고 사람들이 은행 계좌 없이도 지불할 수 있다면 은행이 살아남고 연준 지갑이 제공할 수 없는 것을 제공할 수 있다면 그렇게 하도록 놔두세요.하지만 그럴 거라고 확신해요. 살아남지 못할 것입니다. 은행가들은 아무도 은행 계좌를 개설하고 싶어하지 않을 것입니다. 특히 연방준비제도의 지갑이 무료라면 더욱 그렇습니다. 흥미로운 점은 당시 연방준비제도에서 나오는 것은 다른 사람들, 즉 중간 계층이 과정에서 이익을 내야 하는 사람들에게 모든 상승을 겪을 필요가 없다는 것입니다. 따라서 인플레이션은 기본적으로 둔화될 것입니다. 돈은 항상 미래에서 빌리는 것이 아니기 때문입니다. 또한 연방준비제도는 화폐량을 직접 통제할 수 있게 됩니다. 상업 은행가들은 더 이상 돈을 만들기 위해 돈을 인쇄할 수 없게 될 것이고, 연방준비제도가 그것을 결정할 것입니다. 사람들이 "연방준비제도를 믿지 않는다"고 말하는 것을 신경 쓴다면, 바로 여기에 블록체인이 등장합니다. 그래서 저는 또 다른 중앙은행, 연방준비제도, 유럽 중앙은행 등이 블록체인을 사용하여 디지털 화폐를 발행하는 이유를 설명하겠습니다. 블록체인을 사용하면 모든 사람이 시스템에 얼마나 많은 돈이 있는지 알 수 있기 때문에 연방준비제도와 중앙은행은 사람들을 속일 수 없습니다. 사람들이 알고 있는 것보다 더 많은 돈을 만들 수 없으며 동시에 개인 정보를 보장합니다. 비트코인과 같은 거래이므로 블록체인을 전적으로 지지합니다. 저는 비트코인을 좋아하지 않습니다. 저는 암호화폐가 중앙은행에 의해 민주적으로 통제되지 않는 한 좋아하지 않습니다. 중앙은행은 사람들에게 책임을 져야 합니다. 그래서 저는 이러한 종류의 아이디어를 사용하여 다른 것을 만들었습니다. 현재 사회적 경제를 운영하는 대안적인 방법, 자유주의적 사회적 경제, 그리고 제 생각에는 자유주의자와 좌파 모두에게 어필할 수 있는 능력이 있는 사회적 경제입니다. 저는 블록체인이라는 아이디어가 정확히 같은 설명이 아니라 어떻게든 일어나고 있다고 생각합니다. 주식 시장의 부재입니다. 주식 시장의 부재입니다.정말 눈을 뜨게 하는 내용입니다. 저는 항상 문제가 부분적 준비금과 수요에 따라 인쇄하는 능력이라고 생각했습니다. 오늘 당신이 저에게 강조한 것은 더 큰 문제는 인쇄되는 돈이 실제로 생산에 전혀 사용되지 않고 실제로는 단지 투기에 사용된다는 것입니다. 우리는 시작합니다. 네, 우리는 거대한 카지노를 운영하고 있습니다. 돈이 배치되는 곳입니다. 네, 베팅으로 배치되고 카지노 전체가 인플레이션되고 더 많은 돈이 들어오기 때문입니다. 네, 알다시피 당신은 좋은 베팅을 하는 것처럼 보이지만 실제로는 가치를 전혀 창출하지 못하고 있습니다. 네, 사실 저는 모릅니다. 흥미로운 꿈처럼 들립니다. yianis IIIIII 당신에게 그렇지 않다고 말하는 방법을 모르겠습니다. 제 생각에는 당신이 어려움이 있는 곳을 강조하고 있지만 동시에 그것들이 우리 시스템에 너무 깊이 뿌리박혀 있어서 수천 년 동안의 습관과 탐욕을 근절하기는 실제로 어렵다고 생각합니다. 그래서 아시다시피 제 생각엔 제가 당신의 조언으로 돌아가겠습니다. 당신이 우리에게 주신 조언 말입니다. 제 말은, 청취자 여러분께서 경제나 금융, 돈 등에 관심이 없는 분들에게는 특히 어려울 수 있지만, 실제로 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 이해하게 해 줍니다. 돈의 기본 인프라는 우리가 생각하는 것과는 다릅니다. 끊임없이 쫓아다니는 그 것은 사실 우리가 생각하는 것과 전혀 다릅니다. 우리가 생각하는 형태로 존재하지 않습니다. 저는 다시 야난의 조언으로 돌아가겠습니다. 투자할 대상은 바로 자신이 되는 것입니다. 경제가 어디로 향하든, 돈의 가치가 얼마든, 경제에서 얼마나 많은 돈이 위아래로 순환하든, 가치 있는 서비스를 제공할 수 있는 한 괜찮습니다. 최고의 자신이 되는 한 그런 가치 있는 서비스가 가장 높은 가치라고 생각합니다. 심오한 조언입니다. 솔직히 말해서, 저는 영적 또는 웰빙 관점에서 끊임없이 그것에 대해 이야기합니다. 당신은 최고의 자신이 되기 위해 끊임없이 자신에게 투자해야 합니다. 저는 오늘 당신이 사회에 참여하는 구성원으로서 최고의 자신이 되어야 한다는 것을 깨달았습니다. 왜냐하면 당신은 이 방정식에서 점점 더 누락된 생산물이 되기 때문입니다. 오늘 시간을 내주셔서 충분히 감사드릴 수 없고, 그것은 매혹적이고 눈을 뜨게 해주는 일이라고 생각합니다. 그리고 저는 당신이 모든 것을 갖지 못한 세상에 대한 비전을 제시한 것을 좋아합니다. 저는 당신의 의견에 동의합니다. 그 비전을 보면 우리가 그 방향으로 조금 더 나아가도록 영감을 받는다고 생각합니다. 당신의 시간과 놀라운 지식에 대해 충분히 감사드릴 수 없습니다. 감사합니다. 감사합니다.즐거움은 제게 있고, 실제로 이 책을 읽는 사람들이 실제로 스토리 라인, 공상 과학 부분을 즐기길 바랍니다.그래요, 그렇죠, 그렇죠.그래서 저는 이 책이 매혹적이라고 생각합니다.매혹적인 책이고 공상 과학 부분은 꽤 재밌고, 꽤 머리가 좋고, 매우 감동적인 소설이라고 생각합니다.여러 면에서 꼭 추천하고 싶습니다.정말 감사합니다.들어주셔서 감사합니다.저에게 제 가장 큰 영웅들을 만날 수 있는 기회를 주셔서 정말 감사드립니다.그리고 서두에서 말했듯이 저는 위기 동안 Yan의 작업을 확실히 따라갔고, 저는 여전히 열렬한 팬이었고, 앞으로도 계속해서 당신의 모든 작업을 따라갈 것입니다.오늘 우리가 이야기한 내용을 생각해 보세요.당신이 가진 유일한 자산은 바로 당신 자신입니다.그리고 아마도 잠시 시간을 내어 속도를 늦추고 왜 항상 환상이었던 것을 쫓는지 생각해 보세요.사랑해요.모두 들어주셔서 감사합니다. 다음에 또 뵙겠습니다.

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