기타 EU4에 대한 동아시아에 대한 논의 발췌[영문]

[조화17]

1. Ideas for East Asia

   Hey all, I'm one of the many who wasn't happy with the treatment Japan and China got in Divine Wind, but I like how they were handled in Vicky2 and I'm generally optimistic that the ROTW might get a little more love this time around. The devs probably already know what the plan is for this region, but it can't hurt to brainstorm, right? Worst case scenario, these ideas can help get some mods rolling.
   
   For China, I think the substate system was a pretty elegant solution to Vicky 2's China problems, and I think something like the HRE would be a good fit for EUIV. Dividing the country into rough geographic units or historical commanderies, united under an HRE-style Divine Empire, would do a good job of showing the logistical problems that bogged down Chinese expansion as well as the potential for regional revolts and army mutinies that created so many of the empire's problems. A diplomatic unification would require lots of work and only be available to a closed-off, traditionalist state- modernizing would dissolve the empire and set up wars of unification. China should also have access to a relatively small selection of CBs against its neighbors (to model the fact that it would fight punitive wars or intervene to support local allies, but made very few attempts at expansion during this time period). I also think that a modifier increasing war exhaustion would be a good mechanic for limiting China's expansion into the steppe or southeast Asia and helping to produce the aforementioned revolts and mutinies. All these limitations could be shaken off through the process of modernization.
   
   When it comes to Japan, the Minamoto-Fujiwara-Taira-Tachibana divide is painfully ahistorical but for gameplay reasons it might be the best option for much of the game. The Sengoku Jidai is just about impossible to model because the game lacks the geographic detail to show all of the dozens of factions that existed in Japan at the time and had as good a chance at unification as any other. But, at the very least, I think there should be an Imjin War, a Sekigahara campaign (Toyotomi vassals versus Tokugawa vassals), and a revised Shogunate mechanic, with Bakufu, Kampaku and Imperial restoration unification paths, plus decisions regarding overseas trade, Christianity, and social structure. Japan's military modernization should also be fairly easy during the period 1500-1600, seeing as the Japanese army that invaded Korea was organized on essentially the same lines as Europe's more modern armies of the time (mass mobilization of commoners into well-drilled pike and shot divisions, traditional gentry serving as the officer class and cavalry, a focus on defeating the enemy in decisive shock combat). Toyotomi-era Japan supported overseas trade, was receptive to Western science and made an official goal of expansion and conquest, so if it weren't for the social change brought on by the super-conservative Tokugawa Shoguns I think it's entirely plausible that Japan could have "westernized" well before 1700 and participated in the colonization of Indonesia and Indochina. Even for the Tokugawa, I think isolation should be optional, but modernization and expansion should come at the price of frequent, major reactionary revolts
   
   Korea doesn't need quite as much attention as Japan or China, but I do think they should have the easiest time of the three producing a modern navy. They famously, independently invented the world's first armored, cannon-bearing vessels (these were oar-powered and obviously useless for commerce or deep-sea travel, but in coastal waters it gave them a major tactical advantage during the Imjin War). The country was restricted by its Confucian social order and China's overbearing influence, but if the player can manage a major social/religious change I think it should have the potential to be a decent commercial and naval power. 
   
   Thoughts? What would you guys like to see for this region?
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2. 22-08-2012 10:22#2
   cybrxkhan 

   

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   As a nationalistic Vietnamese, I'd love to see the Vietnamese excel at guerilla warfare, so that they can beat the Chinese every time the Ming send their hordes of doom onto little Vietnam so the great heroic Vietnamese can show them how guerilla warfare is done.
   
   Sarcastic nationalism aside, on a more serious note, I do think that in the original EUIII, even after the expansions and even after the silly tech penalties, the Ming expanded way too easily into some big East Asian blob of doom. My brother, who enjoyed playing as Vietnam, had only one instance when the Ming collapsed due to a number of lucky coincidences (huge rebellions, war with everyone around, etc.). There should be a way for Imperial China to also keep its tributary nations under its yoke. Perhaps it can go to war with nations, but instead of conquering them outright, it'd just turn them into tributaries. 
   
   I also agree that Japan should continue to be divided. The Japan from before Divine Wind was just another regional power. In many of the games they would just start attacking and colonizing the crap out of SE Asia, which I find a bit suspect.
   
   If playing as an Asian nation, keeping oneself isolated - with certain advantages and disadvantages - might be a better way to handle the power potential of Asian nations rather than the arbitrary tech penalty (although I won't say more on this since it's being debated hotly in the Eurocentrism thread right now).
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3. 22-08-2012 12:23#3
   Sakura 

   

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   I was just going to make a thread like this 
   
   Korea:
   
   (I don't expect Korea to get too much love from the devs, but just in case...)
   
   1444's an exciting time for Korea. The Kingdom of Joseon is starting to get going, Sejong the Great is king, and hangul is about to be introduced (there should be an event related to that I think, even if its contemporary significance shouldn't be overstated). 
   
   The yangban (Neo-Confucian bureaucratic elite) have gotten themselves entrenched in power, replacing the old nobility and reforming the country's administration and economy around a centralized bureaucracy. I would like to see this act as a double-edged sword, since this system led to some impressively nasty political infighting and the appointment of unqualified military officials.
   
   I'm going to disagree on the naval suggestion. The accomplishments of Admiral Yi were a bit of an aberration rather than a reflection of general Korean skill at naval matters. We shouldn't place too much importance on something that happens 150 years after the start of the game 
   
   China:
   
   I'm woefully ignorant of the Ming Dynasty so can't put much here (if anyone knows a good survey history of China, please recommend it!). Generally speaking I'd like to see China restrained by domestic factors rather than artificially weakened. Some version of the Sinocentric system would be great, but I'm not really expecting it. 
   
   Japan:
   
   No offense to the devs, but I thought that the system introduced in DW was a step backwards from the unified Japan of the earlier versions of the game. Maybe they finally got it working correctly (I haven't played EU3 in a while), but I didn't care for it from either a mechanical or historical viewpoint.
   
   Anyway, by 1444 the Ashikaga shogunate's authority is already under serious decline, but its not quite gone yet. The provincial governors have established independent economic and military strongholds for themselves and the east of the country's a political mess. But if Yoshimasa were to die and a more capable (and older) shogun were to take over, maybe the chaos of the Sengoku period could have been avoided? I'd like to see a shogunal authority meter that would almost but not quite inexorably tick down to civil war.
   
   I'm not quite sure how I'd like to see the Sengoku period represented. A lot would have to do with the map and other specifics that we don't know about. 
   
   A number of posters in the thread on Eurocentrism have acted like isolationism was a natural part of Japanese culture, but it really wasn't. It was actually a significant change for a country that had actively pursued foreign trade. As also mentioned in that thread, I think Japan's technological backwardness in non-military areas is also exaggerated. So I'm hoping for some kind of tech system linked to trade that won't condemn 1440s Japan for a government policy that won't be put into place until the 17th century.
   
   I don't see an Imperial restoration as being plausible, I'm afraid. The Imperial house was impoverished and without any power by this point.
   
   General:
   
   Wako pirate events! 
   
   I'd like to see a lot of features of the European diplomatic model removed for Asian states. No royal marriages, diploannexations, inheritances, personal unions, etc. And restrictions on alliances.
   
   (I'm well aware that much of the above is purely wishful thinking )
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4. 22-08-2012 21:34#4
   Leviathan07 

   

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   No matter what the details are, China will be a HUGE country commanding vast armies and immeasurable resources, and everyone else will be a midget compared to them. 
   
   The game should be able to cope with that, WITHOUT arbitrary China-nerfs (such as, -X% manpower, -Y% tax income). Playing Vietnam, or Korea, wouldn't be fundamentally different from playing China, but as you conquer an east Asian empire for yourself, you should witness yourself gradually becoming more like China, and adopting Chinese methods to cope with the demands of ruling over the vast empire. 
   
   Ideally, "administration" would be something that costs you money, depending on how you do it. Feudal administration is cheap, centralized administration is expensive. Small country is cheap, big country is expensive, country the size of China is super mega expensive. That alone could guide a Chinese player towards other things than direct conquest, even without arbitrary nerfs. Just give him something else to do with all that limitless money and manpower... dig canals. Build tombs. Build a new capital city every 100 years. Keep your complex and prosperous society running. Shower barbarians with expensive gifts. Squash huge ass revolts. Sponsor a vast class of scribes and mandarins who record your deeds for the ages. 
   
   Oh and if jungle / guerilla warfare was in, it would really be cool. Warfare across harsh and hostile terrain was important to southeast Asia all throughout the EU3 game period.
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5. 22-08-2012 22:24#5
   vyshan 

   

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   One thing that could work is a revised faction system for china as well as repersenting china's tribuitary system with its neighbors
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6. 22-08-2012 23:32#6
   thekinguter 

   

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   Just have Ming's name change depending on its ruling dynasty and I buy the game.

   William III Carlsson of Alabama, Southern Republican, in The Presidents AAR.
   Adlai Carlsson of Alabama, pacifist.
   
   Senator Edgar Geary, Blue Dog Democrat, in "The United States Senate" Forum Game.
   
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   Nationality: South Andean
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7. 23-08-2012 01:07#7
   Aetius 

   

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   Challenge I see is modelling China's interaction with the northern and western barbarians (Mongol states and Manchus). Somehow China needs to be prevented from taking over Mongol provinces, e.g. by limiting China's ability to administrating the provinces. A possibility would be to have a large malus on provinces with low development levels for Confucian and Shinto states combined with a malus for many provinces. Thus imperial overstretch leads to high instability.

   "We demand guaranteed, rigidly-defined, areas of doubt and uncertainty" Vroomfondel
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8. 23-08-2012 01:13#8
   Sakura 

   

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   Why lump Japan in with China there?
   
   (another cool thing that I don't expect to see would be to have Japan's religion be either Shinbutsu or just plain ol' Buddhism rather than Shinto).
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9. 23-08-2012 01:35#9
   vyshan 

   

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    Originally Posted by Sakura 

   Why lump Japan in with China there?
   
   (another cool thing that I don't expect to see would be to have Japan's religion be either Shinbutsu or just plain ol' Buddhism rather than Shinto).

   I thought they had that in DW or was that another mod?
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10. 23-08-2012 04:17#10
    Calanctus 

    

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     Originally Posted by Sakura 

    I'm going to disagree on the naval suggestion. The accomplishments of Admiral Yi were a bit of an aberration rather than a reflection of general Korean skill at naval matters. We shouldn't place too much importance on something that happens 150 years after the start of the game 

    And I'm going to gently disagree in turn.  Korea is a long peninsula surrounded on three sides by major bodies of water. Koreans have a long independent nautical tradition. (Even if the only thing in that tradition Westerners can name is Admiral Yi...) Some kind of small bonus isn't inappropriate at all. What would be inappropriate, I agree, is giving a large bonus solely to represent an exceptional individual who won't even show up in most games of EU4.
    

    China:
    
    I'm woefully ignorant of the Ming Dynasty so can't put much here (if anyone knows a good survey history of China, please recommend it!). Generally speaking I'd like to see China restrained by domestic factors rather than artificially weakened. Some version of the Sinocentric system would be great, but I'm not really expecting it.

    I'd love to see some representation of the Sinocentric order as East and Southeast Asia's diplomatic paradigm. It would really go a long way towards making that area of the world more distinct and flavorful.
    

     Originally Posted by Leviathan07 

    No matter what the details are, China will be a HUGE country commanding vast armies and immeasurable resources, and everyone else will be a midget compared to them. 
    
    The game should be able to cope with that, WITHOUT arbitrary China-nerfs (such as, -X% manpower, -Y% tax income). Playing Vietnam, or Korea, wouldn't be fundamentally different from playing China, but as you conquer an east Asian empire for yourself, you should witness yourself gradually becoming more like China, and adopting Chinese methods to cope with the demands of ruling over the vast empire. 
    
    Ideally, "administration" would be something that costs you money, depending on how you do it. Feudal administration is cheap, centralized administration is expensive. Small country is cheap, big country is expensive, country the size of China is super mega expensive. That alone could guide a Chinese player towards other things than direct conquest, even without arbitrary nerfs. Just give him something else to do with all that limitless money and manpower... dig canals. Build tombs. Build a new capital city every 100 years. Keep your complex and prosperous society running. Shower barbarians with expensive gifts. Squash huge ass revolts. Sponsor a vast class of scribes and mandarins who record your deeds for the ages. 
    
    Oh and if jungle / guerilla warfare was in, it would really be cool. Warfare across harsh and hostile terrain was important to southeast Asia all throughout the EU3 game period.

    Some thoughts:
    
    1. We should be careful to distinguish between China as a society/civilization and China as a state. The former was very large and very rich more or less without interruption for the entire period of EU3/4. The latter was often poor and dysfunctional.
    
    2. The problem the Chinese state had was not expenditure--by modern standards the imperial bureaucracy was extremely small and had very low operating costs, with officials often working the equivalent of unpaid overtime or defraying state expenses out of their own pockets--but revenue. The Ming never found a way to adequately tax their booming commercial sector and relied on traditional agricultural and head taxes until the very end. In addition, there was always enormous pressure from Confucian diehards to streamline government and lower taxes. Consequently, the Ming had one of the lowest tax rates on the planet.
    
    That's not to say I dislike your idea, which sounds fun from a gameplay standpoint. But if we want to stay true to history, a (reformable) tax penalty is actually not a bad way to represent the constraints that Ming China was operating under.
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11. 23-08-2012 06:03#11
    icedt729 

    

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    I'll admit my Korea naval idea is maybe a little gamey, but I'd feel bad about having these long lists of ideas for Japan and China without showing Korea any love. Maybe make the turtle ship a decision along the lines of Highland Charge, giving admirals extra shock? And I agree that the invention of hangul should be kindof a big deal. I wouldn't want to overstate its importance since the yangban just went on using hanja, but being one of the few countries in the world promoting mass literacy deserves some recognition.
    
    

     Originally Posted by Sakura 

    (another cool thing that I don't expect to see would be to have Japan's religion be either Shinbutsu or just plain ol' Buddhism rather than Shinto).

    Couldn't this just be done by changing the name? You could even keep the torii icon, it's a good symbol for "Buddhism with Shinto characteristics." Very easy to mod.
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12. 23-08-2012 19:29#12
    lazysunside 

    

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     Originally Posted by cybrxkhan 

    As a nationalistic Vietnamese, I'd love to see the Vietnamese excel at guerilla warfare, so that they can beat the Chinese every time the Ming send their hordes of doom onto little Vietnam so the great heroic Vietnamese can show them how guerilla warfare is done.
    
    Sarcastic nationalism aside, on a more serious note, I do think that in the original EUIII, even after the expansions and even after the silly tech penalties, the Ming expanded way too easily into some big East Asian blob of doom. My brother, who enjoyed playing as Vietnam, had only one instance when the Ming collapsed due to a number of lucky coincidences (huge rebellions, war with everyone around, etc.). There should be a way for Imperial China to also keep its tributary nations under its yoke. Perhaps it can go to war with nations, but instead of conquering them outright, it'd just turn them into tributaries.

    As another fellow Vietnamese who studied the Outline History of Vietnam (Việt Nam sử lược) I would like to add that there is no need for the Vietnamese to be excel at guerrilla warfare as every time the Chinese attacked, they annexed the country. Later we take it back by luck and rebelling with a lot of attrition on the side.
    
    On the later half of EU3 game, China was under a civil war between Ming and Manchu, so they don't care much about the little country down south. Near the end of EU3 game, Dai Viet was one of the tributary state of China. This means we have to pay them every year for protection. 
    
    And yes, I would like to see a system for Asia only as it is historical and realistic. China protected their tributary states in return for 1-4 years tribute. The moment that a country is unable to pay tribute each year or unwilling to, China gets a cause to attack that tributary state. This however does not affect any Asian countries that has more than 20 provinces.
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13. 23-08-2012 19:40#13
    Don_Quigleone 

    

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    I'd just make Korea more "naval" then neighbouring countries.
    
    One thing I'd love to see in Asia is the (possible) influence of Christianity. Historically, Christian missionary efforts were squashed, but what if things had gone differently? What if a Christian Daimyo had become Shogun? What if the Ming had chosen not to expel the Jesuits?
    
    Could there have been a Taiping style Chinese rebellion 100 or 200 years earlier?
    
    Also, isolationism would obviously need to be in (AI China should be almost guaranteed to enact it, AI Japan likely but not guaranteed to). I think Isolationism should serve as a way to avoid harmful "foreign influences" like Christianity.
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14. 23-08-2012 20:05#14
    Zechariah Zevi 

    

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    With regards to Korea:
    
    I assume the presence of a hangul event is relatively probable given it's in EU3 already, along with the Hall of Worthies.
    
    I don't really see the value of making Korea naval-oriented, the Choson navy was pretty weak historically (the whole military was, really) and as already pointed out Admiral Yi was a startling exception, not at all the norm. Yi was exceptional precisely because the Korean navy was pretty worthless apart from him. Turtle ships were probably not like their current depiction either, the archaeology and historical records all point to them being wooden ships with iron spikes, rather than ironclads. 
    
    As for the establishment of Choson, contemporary historiography suggests that the idea of a Confucian revolution during early Choson is by and large a myth. Obviously there was an ideological transformation of sorts but the social structure was pretty much continuous with Koryo aside from the blunt fact of the downfall of the late-Koryo military dictatorship -- but that process was underway a hundred years before this timeline and doesn't really deserve specific attention in EU4.
    
    The actual historical debates here are tangential; the point I really want to make is just that I'd caution against going overboard in making mechanics (events or whatever) that buy too much into the mythology of traditional Korean history. My personal specialism is much later, Korean political history since WW2, but God knows there's enough distortion and mythologization going on in that period to make caution with earlier stuff worthwhile.
    
    The rather complicated disputes of the yangban elite are definitely worth modelling, however -- this would probably need only one or two events specific to Korea.
    
    I'd also suggest making the Japanese pirate raids from EU3 a little less annoying and a little more rational (anyone who played Korea successfully in EU3 will know what I mean...).

[조화17]

한국에 관해서는 "한글", "양반","해군"에 대해 논의하는 데,
해군은 솔직히 과거에 전설적으로 쎄지는 않았는데
자꾸 이놈들이 모든 해군장군들이 이순신 같다고 착각하는 것 같아서 안타까움.

개인적으로 "양반"세력의 정치관여,, 중세적 공화국 성격을 일본이나, 중국보다 부각시켰으면 좋겠네요.
우리나라 왕이 일본처럼 무사정권이라서 맘에 안들면 바로 처형같은 것도 없었고,
중국처럼 "나는 세상의 황제다 다 내 밑으로 숙여" 라는 정신도 강하지 않았음.
양반이 득세해서 왕이랑 논쟁할 정도니까 좀더 민주적인(?) 정치였다고 생각함.

한글은, 단순히 EU3처럼 기간적인 이벤트가 아니라,
한번 시행하면, 지속적으로 영향을 주고,

[一聲白螺]

중국에 비하면 신권이 강한 측면을 조명한다거나 붕당의 구현 같은게 논의 됬으면 좋았을텐데 말이죠...

[조화17]

그 모디피어가 다른 이벤트를 작동시켜서,
보수적이 양반들의 훈민정음 거부 반란 이벤트나
양민들이 정치에 관여해서 반란 이벤트도 일어나고
대신, 가끔 터지는 보너스 연구가속 이벤트도 (한글보급으로 전체적으로 백성들이 똑똑해짐) 터졌으면 좋겠음.

[조화17]

문제는 제 영어가 짧아서. ㅠㅠ

[황혼의기사]

그리고 조선은 재미가 없어졋다.....는 전설 ㅋ

[앙겔루스 노부스]

정종...

[꿀곰]

전체적으로 한국의 해양문화를 다른 두 나라에 비해 상향해야 하느냐 마느냐가 주 논쟁거리네요.

상향한다는 측에선 한국이 지리적으로 반도라는 점과 임진왜란과 정유재란때의 해군성적을 강조하고

반대측에선 15세기 당시에 한국의 군대 자체가 전체적으로 약했다는 것과 왜란 중의 성과는 한국해군의 능력이라기 보단

이순신 한사람의 업적이므로 해양능력을 상향해서는 안된다고 하는 것 같습니다.

[한니발ㅇㅇㅁ]

최초의 철갑선 애기도 있네요.

[꿀곰]

또 조선의 지배층이었던 '양반'계층이 중앙집권적인 혁신과 붕당정치, 문치주의를(사실 '비합리적 장교 인사제도'라고 해서 핸디캡를 줘야 한다는 뜻이지만)

한것을 강조하여 이 역시 게임에 반영해야한다는 의견이랑

훈민정음 반포 이벤트를 전작보다 더 비중있게 다뤄야 한다고 하는 의견이 있네요.

그래도 이벤트 한두개 더 생기는 거고 일본이나 중국에 비해선 사람들이 별 관심을 안가지는것 같습니다.

[조화17]

정확한 해설이셨습니다. ^^

[一聲白螺]

그러고보니 조선의 붕당 정치 같은건 지금 바닐라의 중국 팩션 시스템과 비슷하게 흘러갈 수도...

[LEINE]

중국에 신롬 시스템 도입한다는거 같앗는데

[조화17]

괜찮은 것 같네요 ㅋ

[一聲白螺]

중국은 그런 시스템의 도입도 있지만... 인구 압력 모디파이어 같은 걸 도입해서 프로빈스의 생산성을 떨어트리는 방법도 괜찮을 것 같네요.

[카지미에스]

한국은 예상한대로 듣보 취급받네요

[조화17]

저정도면 듣보 취급은 아닙니다.
개인적으로 korea에 대한 역사적 지식을 조금이라도 가진 게 신기할 따름입니다. (역시 EU4플레이어랄까요 ㅎㅎ)

[조화17]

그러니까 방어에만 특화된 해군이네요.

[껌좀십은호날두]

솔까 우리나라 대부분의 사람들이 유럽의 스위스나 덴마크같이 중소강국들 역사에 별반 관심이 없는거나 다를바가.

[이드]

8도라도 좀 제대로 구현해줬으면..

[조화17]

그러게요 기본중의 기본인데 말이죠 ㅋㅋ

[wprkfdlsh]

관심 가져주는게 고마울 따름....유럽은 워낙 옛날부터 판도가 걸레라...동아시아는 eu시대때는 중국이 넓은땅을 다가지고있으니 뭐.... 솔직히 조선이란 나라가 국력이 괜찮은 상탠데....주변국들 이 너무 역사적으로 ㅠㅠ