From: "Mu Sang Sunim" Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:15:54 -0000 Subject: "Zen Master Goes to Europe" Part 19
From "Zen Master Goes to Europe" (unpublished) by Zen Master Seung Sahn and Mu Sang Sunim copyright 1990 David B. Gerber
MAY 9, 1978: PARIS, VERSAILLES, PARIS
Bowing, 6:00. Half hour sitting. A student from last night's talk joins us for the reading. His name is Claude, he's practiced Tibetan style, he's married to an American. He gives Dae Soen Sa Nim presents, pictures of a collage he made. Dae Soen Sa Nim gives the following kong-an talk:
STILLNESS, ONLY LIKE THIS, JUST LIKE THIS
"Stillness is primary point, emptiness, true emptiness. We say, 'true emptiness.' Last night after the Dharma talk at the Mus? Sociale I went out with three Catholic priests. One is the president of a Catholic college. He speaks Japanese very well, he's a little short. One priest was tall, he spent eight years in Korea, so he speaks Korean very well. My sister is a Catholic nun and at that time she stayed in the same church where this man stayed. My sister's Catholic name is Columba, so I asked him, 'Do you know Columba?'
"'I know her very well,' he replied. He was surprised to hear she was my sister. So this world is very small.
"At that time I explained without like this, become one like this, only like this, and just like this. First, without like this is true emptiness. So this emptiness is primary point. Then what is primary point, what is true, complete emptiness? There was a lot of talking. Catholic priests, you know, also sometimes understand. So I explained true emptiness to them. God made everything, but true emptiness is before God made everything. This is true emptiness, also this is primary point. Primary point means: before everything is separated-- good and bad, sky and ground.
"The Bible says, 'Be still and know that I am God.' Then 'I am God' means this stillness before everything is separated, this primary point is God. God did not make anything, he's only God. His name is God. We say Buddha nature, O.K., this is not separate. But primary point has no name, no form, also no speech, no word. We say, before thinking.
"Last night I was answering one man's questions, but the translation was difficult, so I could not explain. I talked about clear water. If you boil water it becomes steam, then the steam condenses and the water is clear. But he said, you cannot drink this water because all the air has been boiled out of it. The translation was very difficult, so I said to him, 'Yes, you can drink this water, but that doesn't mean anything. If you're thirsty you can drink it, but it can't help your body, all vitamins and everything are gone. But if you put vitamins or sugar or anything into it, then you can make good medicine and help your body. So you can make everything with this clear water. But if you have dirty water, if it has some color or some bad taste, maybe excrement, then how can you drink it? You cannot. So first you must boil it, then get clear water, then if you like sugar you can put in sugar." So boiling-steam mind is primary point. Also primary point, or clear water, means, we say, become one mind.
"So our mind becomes complete emptiness, but not attaching to emptiness. First complete emptiness, then next, one mind. Emptiness and one mind are the same, but the name is different. Complete emptiness, then become one with this clear water, then put something into it, only like this, then use it, just like this. How use it? Maybe someone is sick, so we use this clear water to make medicine. If it's dirty, we can't make medicine, so first we boil it, then it becomes clear water, then we make medicine, then fix our body. Using, using, how do we use this clear water.
"But last night two translators could not explain it. He only said, 'You cannot drink it.' So I said, 'This woman only asked me how to make the water clear, so I only talked about that.' Then I finished. Very low-class talking! That's O.K.
So with true, empty mind you can do everything. This means, true emptiness already has everything. So if you keep true emptiness for a long time you will get special energy. You will get magic, any kind of magic is possible. God used true emptiness, primary point, then he made everything. So we say form is emptiness, emptiness is form. God made everything from emptiness. So form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Then this form and emptiness come from where? This means, no form, no emptiness. No form, no emptiness means cut off all thinking. The Nirvana Sutra says, everything is appearance and disappearance. This is the law of appearance and disappearance. When both appearance and disappearance disappear, this stillness is bliss. So I asked, 'What is this bliss, what is this stillness?'
"They were all thinking, so they said, 'Stillness is emptiness.' So I said, 'Yes, but what is emptiness?' They said, 'Nothing.' All these are names, you know, so already you have something. If you have complete nothing, how can you speak? You have something, so you have speech. In stillness there is no speech, no word. So I talked about hitting. If you open your mouth, already mistake. Hit means become empty. Become empty means put it all down. Put it all down, your idea, then appearing and disappearing mind disappears. How does appearing and disappearing mind disappear? So long ago Zen Master Rinzai only used 'Katz!' This means appearing and disappearing mind disappear. Zen Master Dok Sahn only used hit--this means, your opinion completely disappears. Zen Master Gu Ji only used one finger--this means, all your thinking becomes one. Put it all down, only become one. Becoming one is also an idea. But don't make idea, only become one. Then this becoming one is better than emptiness. But emptiness and becoming one are not different, they are the same. If you make different, everything is different. If you don't make different, then one thousand things, ten thousand things, one million things are all the same. So true emptiness, become one, then like this--then many things, many, many things appear. Ten thousand, one million things appear. In true emptiness, if one is clear, then ten thousand, one million are clear. If ten thousand, one million are clear, then don't attach to ten thousand, one million, being clear. Just now, what are you doing now? This is just like this.
"Meaning is truth, this is only like this. 3 x 3 = 9--meaning is truth. Spring comes, the grass grows by itself--meaning is truth. The kasa is brown, the robe is gray--this meaning is truth, all meaning is truth. But here there is still something--speech. So we say meaning is truth means any kind of form only makes truth. Thinking makes truth. This is no-attachment thinking, O.K. No-attachment thinking means only like this.
"Only doing is truth. Not thinking. Only try. This is just like this. Only like this has no trying. Then we separate: what is Buddha? The sky is blue, the tree is green. Not try. What is truth? 3 x 3 = 9. This is only like this, there is no try mind, only no-attachment thinking. Just like this: what is truth? What are you doing now. 'I am sitting here.' 'Last night we were drinking coffee.' 'What is truth?' "Drink coffee!' Just like this. This style, only try. What are you doing now? Only like this has no try, only no-attachment thinking. Then become one is cutting everything. Then stillness is all true emptiness, so it's very clear. So this is all truth. No thinking, no- attachment thinking, only try mind, all come from the first course-- attaining true emptiness. Then you can begin. But if you attach to emptiness, this is like the man in the kong-an, dropping ashes on the Buddha. He only blows smoke and drops ashes on the Buddha. Then if you try to teach him, he only hits, he only understands without like this and become one like this. He doesn't understand only like this and just like this. So be careful, don't become a cigarette man! If you don't attach to true emptiness, you can use true emptiness to do everything. So only go straight, don't know, O.K."
A FRENCH STUDENT'S QUESTIONS
After the kong-an talk in Paris, Claude asks Dae Soen Sa Nim, "What is the difference between try mind and patience, waiting?"
Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "Any time that you're waiting you still have I, my, me. If you have no I, my, me at all, then who is waiting? So if I, my, me completely disappear, then waiting is not possible, only try. Only try means, if you don't understand only don't understand. When you drive, just drive. When you drink coffee, don't ask, 'Why am I drinking coffee?' This means you already have I. 'Why drink coffee?' If you have no I, only drink coffee."
Claude says, "By what magic do we think we have I?"
Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "So how do we make I, my, me disappear? What are you? Don't know, yah? Only go straight, don't know, O.K. Don't know mind already cuts off all thinking. Cut-thinking mind is before thinking."
"I had this mind when I was young, but I went to school and they all taught me to think."
"Yah," says Dae Soen Sa Nim, "child's mind is already Buddha mind. If you then understand, understand, understand a lot, this understanding makes your mind complicated. If your mind is complicated, then you have waiting, or confusion, or suffering--everything appears, you know. So Zen is, a complicated mind becomes simple. If you have a very simple mind then you return to child's mind. But a child's mind and a Bodhisattva's mind are a little different. A child's mind, we say, is only like this. A Bodhisattva's mind is just like this. This is different. A child's mind is only feeling, only talking, only action, O.K. Very simple mind. How do you use this simple mind? First become simple mind, then become child's mind, then use this child's mind to teach other people. This is a little different.
"Child's mind is very happy, talking, laughing, sleeping anywhere, eating when hungry. But if someone else is hungry, the child doesn't understand the hungry person's mind. But if you use this mind, then you can give food to someone. If someone is suffering, also you can help this suffering. This is compassion, great love, great Bodhisattva. But children don't have this. They have no compassion, only a very simple mind, a very clear mind. But if you use this mind then you can get great love, great compassion, great Bodhisattva, O.K."
"What is the source for this compassion?" asks Claude.
"Don't check I. If you want compassion, don't make I, my, me. Then already you have compassion, great Bodhisattva."
Dae Soen Sa Nim asks Claude about his practice, and he says he met a Tibetan teacher. Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "Very important, understanding a lot cannot help you. Throw away your understanding, only try. Every day, every morning sit, maybe ten minutes, fifteen minutes, thirty minutes. Also, every morning do 108 bows. This means, we have 108 kinds of thinking in our mind. So bowing, my mind and my body become empty. The Heart Sutra says, you must perceive all five skandhas are empty. When you are bowing you can perceive your body and your mind become empty, this is possible. So this is number one practicing. So we bow and sit, every day, nonstop. If you stop one day, you have a problem for one day. If you try for one day, for one day you have no problem. So practice every day, this will help you. If you only read books and think about Zen, this cannot help you."
"I did read one book by Shunryu Suzuki, a very nice book. I don't know where he is."
Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "Yah, he is dead. If you read a book, don't hold on to the words. If you attach to words or hold words, then you have a problem. If you read a book, clean your mind again, O.K. Once you read a book, your mind becomes dirty, so clean it again. Read a book again, clean your mind again. Clean means, bowing, sitting. Every day you use your mind, so clean it again. This is very important."
"My child once asked me why is the tree green. How should I answer?"
Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "We have two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, why only one mouth? If we had two mouths it would be very easy, you could eat on one side and talk on the other. This is the same question. Why is the tree green? You say to her, the green leaves did not say, 'I am green.' You say green, so you have green, O.K. Very simple. This is a tape recorder. Why tape recorder? Same question. No, no, this is not a tape recorder. This tape recorder did not say I am a tape recorder. You make tape recorder, so you have tape recorder."
"Sometimes when I walk in the street I see things and don't understand for a moment what they are. Afterwards I understand. Or I arrive at a new place and perceive it differently from the way I do later on."
"If you understand your true self," said Dae Soen Sa Nim, "then all at once you will understand everything. But if you don't understand yourself you will have only a little experience, but this experience is sometimes a mistake. So your understanding, your experience, you must put it all down. If you experience something, then your idea is very strong. 'I have already experienced, I understand this.' This mind is very bad. So your experience, your understanding cannot help. Only you must attain your true self. This is very important."
"What must I do about things I have done wrong in the past? Buddha says if I have done something bad I must pay."
Dae Soen Sa Nim said, "Don't check your mind, don't check your understanding, don't check your head! Suffering coming, suffering going, happiness coming, happiness going, let it be. Always, everywhere, keep what am I, don't know. If you attain your true self then you will understand everything."
"So to be in the present..."
"Put it all down. Let it be, everything. Good and bad, let it be."
At 9:30 we leave for Versailles with the two monks. We go through the palace, viewing the apartments, the Hall of Mirrors, the gardens. We see many pictures of King Louis XIV. Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "This is all Dharma play. In Korea it's not this style, in a palace they don't have pictures of individual men. Only pictures of a dragon or a tiger. This represents your true self, not one man's pride." After walking through the gardens we eat lunch at some tables near a refreshment stand. We've brought bread, cheese, yogurt, salad, creme caramel. We walk around and depart.
In the afternoon, we rest. At 4:30 we leave for the Korean embassy. At the embassy we have coffee, Dae Soen Sa Nim gives a talk to the whole embassy staff. (David stays home and rests.) At 6:30 we have dinner at the home of Mr. Lee, a minister at the embassy. Mrs. Lee has spent a day and a half cooking for us. There are all sorts of Korean delicacies. It's a great dinner--our last night.
At 8:20 we leave for the Mus? Sociale for a talk. The talk begins at 8:45. Sixty people are there. Dae Soen Sa Nim talks about kong-ans. Elizabeth asks a long question about Hui Neng and cutting off thinking. Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "Does your question come from thinking or is it before thinking?"
Elizabeth says, "From thinking."
Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "Then I hit you 30 times." There's another question asking about the Korean Rinzai school vs. the Japanese Rinzai school. Dae Soen Sa Nim says, "You must find your own Rinzai school. Then you will understand Korean Zen and Japanese Zen. The talk ends at 10:30. Dae Soen Sa Nim goes with Linda and talks with Korean people. The rest of us walk home. David, Margaret, Sandra and her daughters go out for a drink. Later, Linda, Margaret and David talk until late. | |
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