Interviewer: Kim Yoo-seung(Intern, Peace Network)
Interviewee: Choi Jang-hyun(North Korean refugee, Sogang University)
Traslated by Eun Jong-hun(Intern, Peace Network)
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Nice to meet you. I am Yoo-seung Kim. Please introduce yourself briefly.
Hello,
I am Jang-hyun Choi. I major in mass communication at Sogang
University. I am politically left, may be a little bit left from the
moderates. I am an introspective person but have very positive attitude
toward things around me.
Why do call yourself a left-winger?
First
of all, I want to talk about the ‘North Korean Human Rights Act’. This
act is to establish some principles by squeezing the North Korea.
However, they are principles just our principles, principles of the
South Korea only. North Koreans think those principles as isolation and
pressure. They would never embrace those principles. The left-wing in
Korea tries to change North Korea by talking with them. I think talking
is a better way, so I think myself as a left-winger. It is a matter of
the priority between the principles and the communication, and I think
communication with North Korea, therefore bringing them to the table,
goes before the principles. If South Korea is stubborn with the
principles, North Korea will never change. I read the full text of the
bill made by Saenuri Party. I definitely agree with the purpose of the
bill, and I thought some parts, such as funding the private
organizations supporting North Korean civilians, were really great.
However, I doubt the effectiveness of the bill.
So you think ‘North Korean Human Rights Act’ would not have impacts?
Of
course, the bill would have impacts on some parts, but I think it
wouldn’t be really effective. For example, in the bill, there is a part
about the recording the suppression of human rights in North Korea. It
is right to record it, but would it be worth it? Would it have the
actual effect? Germany also punished some people by recording their
crimes and it kind of worked. But it was Germany. Germany was reunified
by the West absorbing the East. In Korean Peninsula, on the hand, it is
yet questionable that the South is able to absorb the North. I think
South Korea is not ready to absorb the North yet. Talking about the
Germany again, West German government persuaded all the other countries
around them. German Chancellor, taking the risk of being suspected as
pro-U.S., convinced other countries that the reunification was good for
all. Look at us. South Korea is not taking any leads with other
countries around it in diplomacy. For that reason, I think South Korea
is not yet ready to absorb the North.
The
purpose of the recording the suppression done in North Korea is
basically to punish after the reunification. Would the North Korean
ruling class, who represses the civilians, be afraid of it because North
Korea might be absorbed some day? The ruling class in North Korea has
really high self-esteem, especially the elites in North Korea. As far as
I know, they are not the kinds who would fear the absorption and stop
the repression. In the aspect of the appropriateness, it is of course
right to punish them. However, reality is not about what’s right and
wrong. In reality, it would be very difficult to punish them. North
Korean government would read the bill, and they would fly into a rage.
They would think that the South is coming at them to kill them. Then,
there would be less talk, more provocation. It is their ways of
thinking.
When
I escaped the North and came to the South, I was really for the
conservative’s ways like many other North Korean refugees in South
Korea. However, my thought changed over time. As time passed, I started
doubting the effectiveness of the conservative’s ways in treating the
North. I thought it wouldn’t change the North Korea. One example is the
leaflets. The right-wing distributes the leaflets to the North, but even
if the people in North Korea read those leaflets, they don’t hate the
North Korean Government. So it doesn’t really lead to the
anti-government moves.
So you think distributing the leaflets don’t have actual influences on North Koreans. Why?
I
major in communication, so I will explain in the aspect of the media.
Leaflet is kind of ‘mass media’. Basically, it is one-way communication
and the receivers of the leaflet are unspecified individuals. In
addition, most leaflets go to Hwanghae-do and Gangwon-do area. If
leaflets go to other areas such as Hamgyeong-do area, despite the
unilateral method, it might have some impacts among people. Hamgyeong
people know a lot about the China and South Korea. If they receive the
leaflets, they might think, ‘North Korean society is irrational. It’s
illegal.’ However, people in Hwanghae-do and Gangwon-do do not think
like that. Most of them are farmers. They are lowly educated. They have
to sow seeds, weed the fields, and harvest the crops. Even after the
farming season, they have to prepare for the next year’s farming. They
are too busy to think about other things. Farmers cannot do anything.
Some of them might hate the government emotionally after reading the
leaflets, but they do not actually spread the thoughts and do something
about it. They are too busy living their lives.
There are some organizations and figures in South Korea that try to help
democratization of North Korea. Do you think those movements are not
effective as well?
Democracy
is important, but what’s more important is how. There is only goal, but
there are lots of ways to that goal. Effort is important to achieve
something, but it is not the only factor. There is a story from
<Shiji(Records of the Grand Historian)> by Sima Qian. A person
says that he has a lot of money and a strong horse, so he can go to Chu
area. However, he was not directed that way so the other man tells him
that Chu area is located in the south and he should be headed south. The
person in this story had what he needed to go to Chu area, so he was
actually in a great condition to achieve the goal. But the direction was
wrong. With the help of Saenuri Party, organizations and figures have
good conditions and, of course, they are working really hard for the
democratization of North Korea. But I think it is not the fastest way to
get there.
South Korean Movements on the human rights and the
democratization of North Korea are somewhat ideological, therefore
having some methodological problems. You said you agree with the value
of the democracy but current methods of pursuing it are not effective.
Do you have any specific suggestions about the ‘effective methods’?
North Korea is an elitist society. Therefore, we should try to
change the elites who are actually governing the society. Unlike what we
think, university students in North Korea are pretty open minded. The
reason they are open minded is because they face foreign culture such as
foreign TV programs and books. I also was a university student in the
North and my friends and I watched all the Korean movies and soap
operas. We also read some Korean books. I especially read a lot of
Korean books, books about politics, democracy, philosophy, and
psychology, etc. North Korea is under one authority. This unified system
controls the education as well, so education system is based on Juche
Idea and Kim-Il-Sungism. I had been learning things in unified way and
when I faced the diversity from other culture, I became passionate about
it. Most students who were socialized face this when they face the
diversity. In North Korea, we don’t have drinking culture in university
so many students in the university have desires for the knowledge. They
want to study more about things but there are not many materials.
A shock from the diversity. Is it general among North Korean college students?
Young people in North Korea, especially who are educated,
have tendency to accept new ideas. They have some kind of longing for
the outside. When a right-wing organization, North Korea Strategy Center
spread the radio waves to the North, I was really for it. Radio
channels sent from Korea let people compare the North with the South. I
think it is really a good way to make changes. However, I think books
are better than the radio waves. Mass media push people to something
without letting them think. It is kind of ‘throwing the thoughts’. On
the other hand, books let them think by themselves. Students can change
their perspectives by reading books. They can think over it, and these
thought can change into much powerful and meaningful actions. These
days, there are many students who have laptops in the university. So I
think Electric books might help too. It will help elites in North Korea
to think about the rationality, human rights, and democracy. Books are
the best ways to make people compare the experiencing society with
inexperienced ones. And if those elites become more aware of the North
Korean society, I think there is hope.
Since North Korean refugees are mostly right-winged, they make
good basis for the right-wingers’ arguments about the North Korea. I
guess right-wing organizations try to contact refugees a lot.
Right-wing
organizations support the North Korean refugees a lot. There are
relatively less left-wing organizations when it comes to the supporting
of the North Korean refugees. Chosunilbo (* the most conservative rightwing media in South Korea) even have the financial aid
scholarship program for students. I have never seen left-wing
scholarship programs.
For the right-wing organizations, refugees from the North Korea
are really helpful for their movements but for the left-wing
organizations, they seem to be uncertain about the stances on the
relationship with refugees.
Left-wing
organizations say they cannot fully trust the refugees from North
Korea. People have real, actual memories and emotional memories.
Memories do not pull out the emotion. It is abstract emotion which
evokes the memories and brings them out. People were suppressed in the
North. They have hatred toward North Korea so what they say are mostly
very emotional. Usually they give emotional information, not the
detailed, specific information about the North. That’s why some
left-wing organizations have hard time trusting the refugees. And
refugees with the hatred about the North are really easy to agree with
the right-wing.
Although most of the refugees from North Korea are right-wings,
you call yourself a left-wing. Is it because of your position in the
North? You were educated elite in North Korea, so you might have been
less exposed to the severe conditions. I think it could influence your
more open perspective.
Not
really. I was sentenced several years of forced labor because of
watching South Korean soap operas. Even the elite classes in the North
are suffering from the hunger. I also had some diseases from
malnutrition. Of course civilians suffer even more. I escaped from the
North because I hated the North Korean system. It is wrong, inhumane.
Look at this wound. I am sick and tired of North Korea. Lenin pursued an
ideal of the communism not from his family’s death by Tsar Government
but from the rational thinking. It is really important not to act based
on the hatred and to act based on the rationality and intellect.
Ideally, ruling classes in North Korea should be punished. However, it
is by our principle not theirs. It might cause even more repulsion. I
think we can sacrifice small things for the greater things. That’s why I
don’t agree with the right-wing’s idea of only-principle methods. I
think South Korea should be more flexible about that.
So you also experienced suppression, but you overcame that with rational thinking?
If South Korea does not support North Korea, suffers only spreads to the
civilians. Some North Korean refugees say that North Korea didn’t
collapse because of the ‘Sunshine Policy’ held by DJ Government and Roh
Government. But that’s not true. There are many countries supporting
North Korea in humanitarian ways. South Korea gave humanitarian
assistance mostly during the Roh Government, but that was only 16% of
all the humanitarian assistance North Korea got from other countries.
Many people think South Korea’s support flows to military fields such as
nuclear development. That might be partly true, but we should think
that North Korea gets supports from other countries anyways. I
understand why some people are reluctant on helping North Korea but in
other aspects, I can’t understand. North Koreans enter the military and
serve as soldiers when they are seventeen years old. Kids from the rich
family go to better places where they can eat but most kids go to places
where they have to suffer from hunger. During the March of the
Suffering era, many people died from hunger. Without the food aid,
people die. When you serve in the military, you can’t do anything else
to make living. This makes military the worst because it exploits and
prey upon civilians most. When people starve, people become mad and
hard-core. Even if the food aid goes to the soldiers, if they at least
eat something, wouldn’t it be better? I know they are the enemies who
point guns at us. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are
pitifully suffering. I understand South Korea is in a tough position
since they have to feed the enemies. North Korea makes civilians a
pretext for the system. They threaten the South with starving civilians.
They are economically incompetent and at the same time dirty. However,
South Korea should support North Korea with food aid not just for the
reunification but for the democracy. Democracy requires the necessities
of life. If people have food, clothing and places to live, they would
slowly yearn for the political freedom.
Thank you for your thoughts. Is there anything else you want to say?
In the book <Yulhailgi>, Ji-won Park says that government should
sometimes embrace the outlander’s law if it loves and cares its people.
Sino-centrism during that time divides China and the outlanders. I think
we still have that kind of minds in us in that we divide friends and
enemies. Relations should always be rational. I think firmly excluding
just because something is different is not good. Rationality, I think,
is the most important assignment we have for the future relationship
with North Korea. In life we try to make better conditions. I think with
efforts, things will get better.
Thank you for the interview.
Thank you.