Topics for the 12th/Nov, Saturday Meeting

[spinkly]

First Topic

'The Best School System in America'

By Jay Mathews

Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 8, 2005; 9:38 AM

Unless forced to, I don't write about school systems. They are often too big and bureaucratic for me, and the school board meetings -- hour after hours of minuscule rule changes and pointless discussion -- are torture. I tell everyone I am a classroom reporter. I pride myself on my very infrequent contact with superintendents and school board members.

Unfortunately, despite my ignoring them, school systems are still with us. I have come into possession of two studies of what helps them succeed that I feel obliged to discuss, as long as everyone understands this is not going to be a regular thing.

The broader of the two studies, "Power to the Principals: Decentralization in Three Large School Districts" by UCLA business management professor William G. Ouchi, comes out this spring in the journal Organization Science. The narrower study, of great interest to Washington area readers, is a short book, "Education Empire: The Evolution of an Excellent Suburban School System," ($21.95 at amazon.com) by University of Virginia education professor Daniel L. Duke.

Both studies say one way to improve student achievement in large systems is to give school principals more power. Duke's book is about Fairfax County. The Virginia jurisdiction has had remarkable success educating both rich and poor students by decentralizing the education of students with disabilities and letting schools choose demanding programs. Ouchi's article goes much, much further than that. He praises a radical decentralization program invented in 1976 by Mike Strembitsky, the superintendent of the Edmonton, Alberta, schools in Canada, and reports significant improvement in two American urban districts, Seattle and Houston, that adopted the Edmonton model.

Please take a moment for a brief note of caution from me, the reluctant reporter of school systems. It is very difficult, indeed often foolhardy, to compare school systems to each other and declare why some are doing better than others. They have so many factors affecting achievement -- poverty level, cultural background, administrative habits, state funding formulas, union strength, taxing authority, school board politics -- that it is impossible to decide conclusively what changes have had what impact. That is why I prefer to focus on individual students and individual schools.

But Ouchi and Duke are serious scholars presenting their results, not making claims. What they say about why these four systems have done well deserves close examination, even if I don't have any great hope that they have found what will cure the ills of whichever urban school system is in your neighborhood.

Duke makes no secret of the most important reason for the high achievement of Fairfax County students -- most of their parents have good jobs and good educations. As he notes on page 1: "Fairfax County, of course, is not just any suburban area. It is one of, if not the wealthiest counties in the United States."

But there are many affluent school systems that have not done nearly as well as Fairfax in educating their low-income and minority students. Some of the county's schools, such as Stuart and Mt. Vernon high schools, have high poverty levels and yet their students do very well in demanding programs such as International Baccalaureate and Advanced Placement. Fairfax has seen good results from giving its low-performing elementary schools more resources and longer school days, and 92 percent of its students with disabilities graduate with traditional diplomas.

Duke titles one section of the book "The Best School System in America," using the quotation marks to emphasize that this is just an opinion (although one that I share). Although he singles out Fairfax, there are a few other districts that rival Fairfax's quality, such as its Maryland neighbor Montgomery County, and many others that would do well too if they had Fairfax's $1.8 billion annual budget.

But Duke's analysis of what else sets Fairfax apart is interesting. He says that Fairfax's administrators and school board members have high expectations for the school system, read the latest research and are often ahead of most districts in embracing new and promising methods. The school system benefits from being relatively stable, with few crises or political battles, and thus more willing, Duke says, to make serious changes and stick with them. Fairfax leaders' approach to change, Duke emphasizes, is usually well-balanced. "They understand that the end result often must be judicious compromise, a balancing of competing interests," he says.

Ouchi ignores the middle-of-the-road approach and investigates a policy shift most systems could not even imagine. In part because of his books and articles on Edmonton, that oil and agriculture center with 80,000 students has appeared on the travel expense accounts of many U.S. educators.

Edmonton's superintendent Strembitsky was a visionary who loved to analyze budgets. He created a remarkable accountability system a generation ago in which schools are rated not only by test scores and budget performance, but by satisfaction surveys of their employees, students and parents. Parents are allowed to send their children to any school in the system, and the system in turn funds each school based on a formula that gives more money to schools that have more children who are poor, gifted, have learning disabilities or are not native English speakers.

That means that some students, sent to the school by their parents, bring five times as much money with them as other students, and the principals and their staffs decide how to spend it. If the students don't come, they have nothing to spend, so they become very sensitive to what parents want from their school, and their annually published test scores and satisfaction results are key to their survival.

Ouchi says that Houston and Seattle had impressive results when their school boards and superintendents adopted this approach in the 1990s. The principal of the John Hay Elementary School in Seattle, for instance, controlled only $25,000 of his funds before the change, and $2 million after. The John Hay principal and teachers reorganized the school day, invested in part-time reading and math coaches, and saw math scores go from the 36th to the 62nd percentile and reading scores from the 72nd to the 76th percentile in four years.

In Houston, the school system went from having only four schools reaching one of the two top categories in the state's test-score-based rating system in 1993 to having 123 in those categories in 2001. Ouchi says he has looked into the much publicized misreporting of graduation rates and test scores at some Houston schools and says "our review of the evidence convinces us that the district has made real and dramatic improvements in student achievement."

There are many powerful reasons why so few school systems have followed the Edmonton model. Money is power, and most school board members and superintendents of systems where spending decisions are made at headquarters don't want to give it up. But if these results hold up, and academic achievement becomes, as the reformers promise, the basis on which school administrative decisions are made, they may have to.

And if giving parents a choice of schools, assigning different dollar amounts to students based on what it costs to teach them and giving principals the responsibility for spending that money consistently produces better student achievement, I may have to start taking school systems, and what they do, more seriously.

Regina: Also, we will cover the issue of one episode in the US, which is an argue of parents of high school students about teaching Darwin's theory at public school.

Second Topic

Monday, Nov. 7, at 1 p.m. ET

Outlook: Divorce and Children

Elizabeth Marquardt

Author, "Between Two Worlds: The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce"
Monday, November 7, 2005; 1:00 PM

It happens to 1 million American children every year: Their parents sit them down and tell them they're divorcing. But not to worry, Mom and Dad say, it's all going to be amicable and we're going to share custody. We're going to have a "good" divorce. Right. Although experts and the media sing its praises, there's no such thing as a "good" divorce, argues author Elizabeth Marquardt in her Sunday Outlook piece. Divorcing parents try to convince themselves that if only they get the details of divorce just right-- if they minimize conflict and stay involved with the kids -- then their children will suffer no lasting harm. But they're kidding themselves -- the effects of divorce, Marquardt found in a national study of children of divorce that she helped conduct, last a lifetime and have negative consequences on children no matter how "good" a divorce the parents think they have engineered.

Elizabeth Marquardt , an affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and the author of "Between Two Worlds: The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce," was online Monday, Nov. 7, at 1 p.m. ET to discuss her Sunday Outlook article, Just Whom Is This Divorce 'Good' For? , ( Washington Post, Nov. 6, 2005 ).

The transcript follows.

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Reston, Va.: Hi, thanks for a great article. My parents separated when I was in ninth grade and maintained a good relationship. Three years later, they got back together, so I was now in 12th grade. I always wonder which category I fit in -- am I a child of divorce or not? When I think about what impact, if any, their separation had on me, I would guess that I have some issues with trust. Never sure if something is going to last. Has there been research on kids of once-separated, then reconciled parents?

Elizabeth Marquardt: The situation you describe seems not uncommon, though I don't have numbers for it. In my study, the 71 young people I interviewed in person, one was in the divorced group because her parents divorced, remarried and divorced again, the other was in the intact group because her parents divorced and then remarried each other. I've also seen this among friends of the family. I think it's head spinning for the kids, especially if the parents divorce a second time...

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Washington, D.C.: It's about time someone stated explicitly that no divorce is a "good" divorce. Has there been any other data (besides your survey) to indicate this?

Elizabeth Marquardt: Mine is the first study to take on and challenge the idea of the "good" divorce.

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McLean, Va.: Great article. While I realize it wasn't the focus of the article, I'm curious if you ran across anyone that looked at the impact of step-family divorces - e.g., a child becomes close to a step-father or -mother who then divorce. My step-son is going through this right now (on mom/step-dad's side, not his father and I) and we're not sure what to do. We only have him alternate weekends, and while he loves my husband, I know losing his step-dad is going to be tough.

Elizabeth Marquardt: you're right, it is tough. those losses after divorce are real and painful for the kids -- losing stepparents or parents' boyfriends or girlfriends to further break ups. You are wise to recognize the importance of the relationship and do your best to keep it going despite the divorce. I remember my ex-stepdad and I agreeing to call each other "friend" since we had no other name to call each other.

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Washington, D.C.: I look forward to reading your book. Your article was sad and I appreciate your personal and professional perspective on divorce. I do not wish divorce on kids at all and struggle with it as I am going through one right now.

I worry how my son will endure the divorce in light of his father's alcoholic behavior for many years, would he have wanted me to stick it out knowing that living with him was similar to a ticking time bomb--we would all have been destroyed. How can I as a mother make this easier on my son who is a teenage? What can I do to make sure that he feels valued by both parents but the divorce was inevitable and right? How do I ensure that he is a healthy, bright child who is resilient to life and not destroyed by his parents divorce?.

Elizabeth Marquardt: Anecdotally, I've noticed that when there were very good reasons for the divorce -- such as one parent's untreated, serious addiction or serial infidelity or violence -- the children understand, if not right away, then soon enough. It is hard for them, but they understand why they and their mom were not safe living with someone with untreated addictions, even though the breakup of the family is incredibly painful and the worries for that person battling their illness remain very real...

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Fairfax, Va.: Is it healthy for children if their parents still get together for the holidays, i.e., if divorced parents come together so the children can have a pre-divorce-like Thanksgiving?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I really wonder about that one. Kids feel a lot of stress when their divorced parents are together, even if the parents don't fight and behave well. I'm not sure what wisdom there is in doing that every holiday unless the child truly seems to want it. In my case, my parents were involved in really big occasions -- graduations, my wedding, 16th birthday -- and I really appreciated that a lot. Whatever stress I felt about having them both there was less than appreciating them both being involved in the really important stuff.

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Reston, Va.: So what do you suggest for a family with children when neither partner is particularly happy together (but not in an abusive or otherwise dangerous situation)...to stick it out for the kids? If so, for how long--or should you just be fairly unhappy your whole life...

Elizabeth Marquardt: Happiness is a fuzzy thing. One study found that of people unhappy in their marriage, who stayed married, five years later 80% now said they were happy. Some marriages are going from bad to worse, fast. But many go in cycles and good times follow bad. In addition, divorce won't necessarily make adults happy. It's a hard road for many.

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Washington, D.C.: With so many children coming from divorced homes, do you think that is becoming the new "norm?" And if so, do you think this may change the way kids feel about it (i.e. as a traumatizing experience)?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I don't think the widespread nature of divorce reduces children's pain. Much like knowing that everyone else's mother will die someday doesn't reduce the pain when your own mother dies.

We can try to make divorce a "new norm" but it will be a tragic one.

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Washington, D.C.: So are you saying that it's preferable that unhappy spouses refrain from divorcing? Why would that be better for the children - why is it good to show your children that THAT is what marriage is about - staying together no matter how unhappy, filled with struggle, etc. the situation is - or that it's about suppressing your true feelings and pretending to be happy? That doesn't make sense.

Elizabeth Marquardt: In the study we compared "good" and "bad" divorces with three types of marriages: unhappy but low conflict marriages, unhappy and high conflict marriages, and happy marriages. Grown children of "good" divorces fared worse on many indicators than those from unhappy, low conflict marriages (and recall that the majority of marriages ending in divorce are low conflict), and they fared far worse than those who recall their parents having a happy marriage. The table explaining these comparisons and how they were made is found in appendix A in the back of the book. (Appendix B reports the full survey data.)

It is clear from this study that children of both "bad" divorces and unhappy, high conflict marriages have, generally speaking, childhoods filled with suffering. Other research (by Paul Amato and Alan Booth) has shown that when a high conflict marriage ends the children, on average, do better. My study supports that, but I also think it's important that we look at the experience of children of divorce *even when* the divorce was clearly necessary. I interviewed in person some of these young people whose high conflict parents divorced. Their summary was along the lines of: "The divorce made some things better but a whole lot of things worse." The fighting in their home was reduced. But their parents' miserable parenting skills did not improve much by virtue of divorce, and the children were exposed to new risks after the divorce, including higher risks of sexual abuse by unrelated adults passing through the home, more time alone without either parent in the house, financial worries, and more

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Alexandria, Va.: --We found that children of so-called "good" divorces often do worse even than children of unhappy low-conflict marriages -

Define "often" and "worse".

Is "often" more or less than half the time? Statistically significantly so?

How do you define "worse"?

For example "Two-thirds said their parents seemed like polar opposites in the years following the divorce, compared to just one-third of young adults with married parents". Does this contribute to "worse"? Is it necessarily a bad thing? Why isn't it a good thing? (learning how to deal with people with different personalities, and learning that "different" isn't necessarily "better" or "worse"?)

Or "Half said their divorced parents' versions of truth were different, compared to just a fifth of those with married parents." So, those of us with divorced parents learn that people see the world differently and that even well-meaning people view "truth" through the lens of their personal experience/expectations. Is this necessarily bad? According to who?

Do you have data that says people with divorced parents are, to a statistically significant degree, less happy, or less successful, or more frequently ill (a sign of stress) than people with unhappily married parents?

Of course divorce affects children. To say otherwise is ridiculous. That's not the same thing as saying it hurts them, though. The fact that children of divorced parents have different experiences and different views of the world than children with parents who get and stay married doesn't necessarily mean they are worse off. They may be. I see nothing to suggest that in your article, though.

Elizabeth Marquardt: Full clarifications and full survey data (all 125 questions, and all the answers) are available in Between Two Worlds: The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce. I hope you'll take a look.

You can post comments on the book at http://www.betweentwoworlds.org/

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Arlington, Va.: My parents 'good divorce' (split custody, lived close together and without conflict) occurred when I was 10. Now 33, I still find myself being, as you succinctly wrote, a 'different person in the different worlds'.

In your study, did you find children of 'good divorces' also have problems being totally comfortable in relationships OUTSIDE their families (work/social/romantic)?

If so, what is the cause?

And, more importantly, is there a solution?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I think the big challenge for grown children of divorce is to trust they can be their whole, true self around everyone. They have to reintegrate themselves. Clearly, there is not an easy way to do this, but I think a big step towards healing is recognizing and naming the problem, which I try to do in Between Two Worlds. I propose a new vocabulary to explain the challenges facing children of divorce: they are travelers between two worlds. they must become early moral forgers. they become little adults, grown up too soon. in spiritual and religious dimensions they are child-sized old souls. If we have a vocabulary and can name the problem we are on the road to wholeness.

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Phoenix, Ariz.: What a great article...

My parents had a "good" divorce - relatively peaceful but the stress does NOT ever go away - I was more worried at my wedding about how my parents/step-parents would handle each other in the same room, than about my marriage vows. Holidays are impossible - always split and divided and a big stress.

And the quote by Jen Robinson describes me to a "T". Appeasing others is a recurring theme for me.

My husbands parent's also divorced - messy, custody disputes - my husband made the decision in high school to live with his father. Despite all the conflict, I feel like my husband has a more defined sense of self and direction...could just be his personality or a variety of other factors...but your article shed a lot of light.

Should my parents have stayed together? No...they are happier now with the second spouses and have created new families. I could not imagine parents together at all. But I do think children should be (or I should have been) consulted more, explained to more, asked opinion and been part of the process. And parents have to realize they can't have their kids (even as adults) for every holiday and event....it turns into a "she likes me better" game.

Elizabeth Marquardt: thanks for comments like these. They are amazing for me to read.

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Gaithersburg, Md.: Like you, I'm the child (now in my 40s) of what would normally be considered a "good divorce." Dad moved into an apartment one mile away, maintained his participation in my youth groups, taught me to drive and was pretty much the model 14%-er. (For unfamiliar readers: that's a non-custodial parent, usually the father, who sees the kids on alternate weekends.)

One element I remember strongly, that I seldom see discussed, is how it me made question the life lessons I had been taught growing up. Children are taught that everyday life lessons about things like religion, getting along with others, how to make a moral choice and the relative importance of school and play are best learned through the influence of family. It's the foundation of our society and our values.

But my family had, in some sense, failed. Since our family was six, rules about getting along with each other were very important. But since Mom and Dad couldn't do it, it made me question everything else they'd taught me about human relationships.

No real question, except did anything like this come in your interviews?

Elizabeth Marquardt: My book, Between Two Worlds, reports a study on the moral and spiritual impact of divorce on children. The literature on children's moral and spiritual development has an enormous, gaping hole when it comes to children of divorce. The great works were either written before divorce was widespread or continue to ignore the fact of divorce and assume implicitly that all children grow up in intact families. My book seeks to fill that gap, dealing with some of the very issues that you raise.

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Maryland: What is the economic impact of divorce?

Elizabeth Marquardt: Huge. Many social problems are driven by family breakdown. See the publications list at our Institute (www.americanvalues.org) especially our new, 2nd edition of "Why Marriage Matters" which reports findings from the social sciences.

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Washington, D.C.: For parents who live close to one another, would you recommend a child splitting time with his parents? For instance one week with mom and the next with the father. Or is it best for the child to live with one parent and then visit the other? Thank you for your thoughts.

Elizabeth Marquardt: Custody decisions are never one size fits all. The parents and judge have to make the best decisions given the needs of the child and that particular family. I will say, though, that the increasing presumption in the culture and among some parents that splitting the child's time 50/50 between homes is the most "fair" thing for the parents, and is therefore always right for the child, is dead wrong.

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Mandatory pre-marriage counseling: Some of the easiest things in life are getting married (a trip to a city hall and some cash) and getting pregnant. Ironically, some of the hardest things in life, however, are staying married for the rest of your life and successfully raising a human being - your own child. Given that every other marriage fails and who knows how many unhappily stay together, why isn't there any kind of mandatory pre-marital counseling or something? Our society not only treat diabetes but also promotes exercise as a way to prevent diabetes. There doesn't seem to be enough effort in making sure people who are about to start a family get to think about the effects of failure, for instance. What are your thoughts?

Elizabeth Marquardt: There's good data showing that marriage education (as opposed to counseling) can reduce divorce rates in communities. I think broader marriage and relationship education available in schools, churches, therapist's offices and for low-income people is a great idea -- I'm not sure, though, about making it mandatory before you can get a marriage license. If we stack up fees and obligations to get the marriage license we might discourage people from marriage who are nonetheless having children together. And 3/4 of children of cohabiting parents see their parents break up by the time they're 16. Marriage makes a difference, but mostly I believe in cultural change rather than working through law and policy. Mostly, that is.

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Washington, D.C.: Why do people always compare the children of divorce to the children of a "happy" marriage? Of course children thrive with happy parents. Why don't people consider that the divorced parents probably weren't happy -- maybe not screaming -- but probably not happy. Why doesn't anyone study the effect of growing up as the child of an unhappy marriage?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I think this is on the transcript available to everyone, but in case it's not: In the study we compared "good" and "bad" divorces with three types of marriages: unhappy but low conflict marriages, unhappy and high conflict marriages, and happy marriages. Grown children of "good" divorces fared worse on many indicators than those from unhappy, low conflict marriages (and recall that the majority of marriages ending in divorce are low conflict), and they fared far worse than those who recall their parents having a happy marriage. The table explaining these comparisons and how they were made is found in appendix A in the back of the book. (Appendix B reports the full survey data.)

It is clear from this study that children of both "bad" divorces and unhappy, high conflict marriages have, generally speaking, childhoods filled with suffering. Other research (by Paul Amato and Alan Booth) has shown that when a high conflict marriage ends the children, on average, do better. My study supports that, but I also think it's important that we look at the experience of children of divorce *even when* the divorce was clearly necessary. I interviewed in person some of these young people whose high conflict parents divorced. Their summary was along the lines of: "The divorce made some things better but a whole lot of things worse." The fighting in their home was reduced. But their parents' miserable parenting skills did not improve much by virtue of divorce, and the children were exposed to new risks after the divorce, including higher risks of sexual abuse by unrelated adults passing through the home, more time alone without either parent in the house, financial worries, and more

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Chicago, Ill.: How well represented were different income levels and races in your study? I assume you went for a good cross section, but in some ways, I can't help but think that some of these children's dual personality complaints are those of middle to upper middle class white folks. I think other groups long have had to maintain dual faces to become conventionally successful in our society. Not that is a good thing either, but I think the trauma to these kids should be put into some perspective.

Elizabeth Marquardt: It was a nationally representative telephone sample. That meant people who were at home in the evening,had a telephone, were answering it and had 25 minutes to talk to an interviewer. So there was a pretty good mix of race and income but of course it leans towards the middle class. Full demographics are at www.betweentwoworlds.org and click full survey data.

It's also the case that divorce is, arguably, an increasingly "bourgeois" problem (pardon my spelling -there doesn't seem to be spell check on here). 2/3 of Af Am babies and 1/3 of white babies are born to parents who never marry at all. Also, the low marriage rate in the Af Am community accounts for part of why there were relatively few Af Am children of divorce or marriage in our national sample.

I think you're right that the oppressed have had to adapt to different worlds, and in a sense it's nothing new. But I think it is news that the children of divorce are part of this group, and these worlds, for them, are not just home and employer or ethic group and assimilated group, but rather the worlds of their own mother and father. This challenge goes to the heart of their identity in a way far more intimate and, arguably, perhaps ultimately even more painful than the kinds of comparisons you make.

However, I shouldn't really go there, because I'm always reluctant to compare pain with pain (which is worse? Having your dad die when you're a kid, or having your parents divorce?) The point is that pain hurts and a good society tries to reduce pain for its children.

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Ashburn, Va.: Very well put, Ms. Marquardt. I call this the "part-time parent trap". In order to escape the hard work of raising children and dealing with all the day to day issues, parents see a real benefit to themselves of having every other weekend off. The children of course, pay the price for this.

Elizabeth Marquardt: I have seen a couple articles by divorced moms in parenting magazines where they admit the dirty little secret is that, when the kids are at dad's, they can stay up late with their boyfriend, sleep late, drink too much, etc.

I'm a mother of a 3 year old and 18 month old. My husband and I get NO breaks from these beautiful kids. Part of me thinks that if they were gone every weekend I'd get that pent up desire for fun out of my system and be a better mother for it. But part of me thinks there's this sublimation of self that comes with round the clock parenting -- you just basically forget what adult "fun" was -- and that if I had a taste of it I'd want more and would be resentful at the constant demands of children when they were around. I don't know. There's an article in here somewhere. :)

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Sunrise Beach, Mo.: Should people even contemplate marriage and having a family since the odds are so high they will divorce? Author Stephanie Coontz argues marriage is an archaic custom which should be discarded in modern society.

Elizabeth Marquardt: The cohab break up rate is far higher than the divorce rate. Lifelong marriage is a radical thing now. It flies in the face of a 21st century global economy in which we're all supposed to be at the beck and call of the movements of capital. Coontz and the others are welcome to all that, and the atomizations of families and relationships that come with it, but I say let's do something different. Let's go for the radical thing called marriage.

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Vienna, Va.: Can you tell mothers who have suffered in bad marriages for 20 years to keep staying and give up any chance of happiness? My marriage is low conflict, but my husband is narcissistic, cold, unloving, admits he never loved me. He appears warm and ideal to others. He have no ability to care about anyone, including the kids. I have raised them alone and made all decisions and done all the caring and worrying. At 48 I feel nearly dead and have one teen left at home.

Elizabeth Marquardt: I feel for you. There's a lot of areas of gray here, where there are no easy answers. There is also some fantastic help available these days. I've linked to two sources I like best at my Web site www.betweentwoworlds.org, click on "for your marriage."

I wish you and your family the very best.

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Madison, Wis.: Thank you for your interesting piece on the effects of divorce on children. As a child of divorced parents who really did not even make an effort to have a "good" divorce, I think I resonate with the idea that kids will always feel the effects no matter how it happens or when it happens. I have heard that children of divorced parents are more likely to get divorced themselves, which is a bit frightening to me and my sister who both married someone with divorced parents as well. Do you know of any evidence that this is the case? Also, are there good resources for parents/children/grown-up children on how to have healthy relationships after parents go through a divorce (i.e. helping kids have healthy marriages when the model they have is not superb)?

Elizabeth Marquardt: yes, the children of divorce do have a higher divorce rate themselves. I hate that statistic too. But I think there's a lot that all of us, whether or not we are from divorced families, can do to strengthen our marriages (I'm married 9 years). I think learning about the normal cycles that marriages often go through and the typical areas of conflict that everybody has, for instance, can help normalize the whole thing and reassure us anxious children of divorce that the first sign of conflict does not mean the whole thing is going under. That link I referred to "for your marriage" at my http://www.betweentwoworlds.org/ is a good place to start for learning more.

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Princeton, N.J.: In your article you discuss that children of divorce often feel divided and become secretive. As a researcher on the effect of divorce on children, what advice can you give about overnight visitation for a pre schooler to divorced parents who have been separated/divorced since the child was a baby. Is overnight weekend visitation appropriate for a pre-schooler in the first place?

Elizabeth Marquardt: There's an active debate among the experts about what to do about the "babies of divorce." Some say they're able to adjust fine to traveling between two homes, others are cautious. I'm reluctant to give advice about particular situations (not knowing the particulars, and also not really being that kind of person) so I guess I just have to say there is reason for caution but also perhaps good reasons for parents bonding in their own homes with the child.

I will say that court cases I have heard of in which mothers have been ordered to pump breast milk so that the infant can have overnight visitation with the father are atrocious.

By the way, the volume of questions and comments is amazing and gratifying. I wish I could get to every one. Thank you everybody for logging in.

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Fairfax, Va.: Thanks so much for a great article. It's about time that people realize there really is no such thing as a good divorce. My parents divorced when I was two years old. The experiences that are described in your book, e.g., the sense of being an outsider, not feeling as though you can rely on your parents, the perception of being alone, were all too familiar to me. The appearance of step-parents and half-siblings in my life only served to exacerbate those experiences. I think the main point is that, when parents divorce, it is their children who end up getting left behind and "forgotten" (emotionally, academically, financially) by their parents who have "moved on" and are busy with their new lives and loves. These children are no longer the center of their parents' love and attention, and so must learn to take care of themselves, rely on themselves and, often, take care of their parents' needs. The bottom line is this, people should think long and hard before getting a divorce and try to avoid it at all costs, but, if there's no way to avoid it, they should try to ensure that their child has some sort of alternate support system to which they can turn.

Elizabeth Marquardt: Amen. Beautifully put. Thank you

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Potomac, Md.: As an educator I see first hand the effects of shared custody on children. The trend in the courts seems to be to treat all families with a one size fits all approach to custody and visitation arrangements. It is important that children have ongoing relationships with both parents. However, the children who have to commute between two homes during the week suffer. Have the parents of these children ever stopped to think how they would function if they needed to live the complicated life imposed on their children? Would they be rested, organized, and ready for their work day? As you note, the routines and expectations of the households may be different. Often these kids are diagnosed with depression, ADD or a learning disability. Often important schoolwork gets lost between the two homes. Often the parents' attitude about the importance of homework, studying, and being rested differ. My first hope is that parents put their children first by not getting a divorce because of boredom or dissatisfaction. However if divorce is necessary, parents should have empathy for their children even if it means one parent sees less of the children. As a parent, I know that I would miss my children and I would want to spend as much time as possible with them. However, this lost time is a consequence of the parents' behavior and divorce, not the children's. Maybe the greatest love a parent can show is not to make their children suffer more.

Elizabeth Marquardt: What you say is so important. What I hate most is seeing what is often a social and family problem -- widespread divorce and crazy custody decisions like you cite -- being treated only as an individual pathology. Hey, this kid can't cope, he must have ADD, bring out the pills.

Thank you for writing.

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Chicago, Ill.: Would you please elaborate on your position with the Institute For American Values? And elaborate on what that organization is?

I am generally very supportive of your research findings, as I have always held a personal belief that divorce is never a good thing, unless there is abuse, addition, abandonment or infidelity. However, I am wondering if your affiliation with the Institute may have colored your research a little. It's not the same as if a "neutral" institution, say a public university, conducted such a study on its own and came to these research conclusions vs. the Institute, an organization that's dedicated to "spreading" marriage in this country.

It's a bit like University of Ill. conducting a study that says oil changes every 3K miles are important vs. Jiffy Lube conducting such a study, no?

Elizabeth Marquardt: Our Web site is http://www.americanvalues.org/ You can look at our projects and publications.

My co-investigator for the national survey is Prof Norval Glenn at the U of Texas at Austin, a widely published sociologist and family scholar.

True, I'm not a university -- but that means I can speak the truth and not worry about tenure and faculty politics :)

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Silver Spring, Md.: Divorce is very hard on kids - but one way parents can really help their kids is by giving them lots of undistracted attention. That means when you're with your kids, be with your kids, and not checking emails, answering your cell phones and blackberries. Do your work at the office and when you're with your kids spend time with your kids.

Elizabeth Marquardt: Good advice for all of us multi-tasking parents. Thank you :)

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Oakland, Calif.: I smelled it from reading your psuedo-science article, but in case your readers don't know, your Institute on American Values is a deeply conservative Christian organization that is funded by the ultra-conservative Scaife and Bradley foundations. In the interests of transparency, The Post and your article should have pointed that out.

Elizabeth Marquardt: thanks for writing. We're not a faith-based organization and we don't subscribe to labels (conservative, liberal, whatever -- I happen to be a lifelong Democrat, if that matters). We get some funding from the two sources you cite, as well as others. The study reported in my book was funded by the Lilly Endowment. Thank you to all of our funders.

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Re: Ashburn: I think it's very incredulous for someone to conclude that couples divorce because they want kid-free time in a shared custody arrangement. Divorce is a terribly sad event, and I would hope most people come to that conclusion at the end of a careful bit of soul searching.

I think these comments are way off the mark and denigrate the very personal, and difficult decisions that people have to make.

Elizabeth Marquardt: I don't think couples do it this way on purpose -- I merely note this "dirty little secret" revealed by a couple single moms writing in parenting magazines.

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Washington, D.C. : I have to admit I was really appalled by your article. You seem to be advocating a return to 1950s-era "Pretend everything's great" culture, where spouses (especially women) give up their rights to be loved and be in a fulfilling relationship just to keep up appearances and maintain the facade of a strong family unit. Is that your goal? Because it sure sounds like it. I don't hear any other suggestions from you besides "Stay together, suck it up, it's not that bad." I also think you should have identified yourself as someone with a confirmed conservative agenda.

Elizabeth Marquardt: Note the distinctions I make between high conflict and low conflict marriages, both in the op-ed, and in my book, and twice already on this discussion. Sometimes divorce *is* necessary. How much more clear can I be? :-)

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Ellenton, Fla.: Great article, and fascinating study. Did your study take into account the age the children were when their parents divorced, and what the differences and degrees of differences were in the issues that the various age groups faced?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I haven't looked at that yet, and plan to. It's a great question.

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Chantilly, Va.: Do you support the Bush Administration Marriage Initiative which allocates money to marriage education programs to low income families?

Elizabeth Marquardt: Yes.

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Washington, D.C.: Maybe this question is out of topic BUT what is the difference of children whose parents were NEVER married or living together, but the parents of these children remarry? Is there any difference!

Elizabeth Marquardt: I'd love to study this someday. Related to the kinds of questions I asked in Between Two Worlds, I don't know. There is existing data on other kinds of outcomes (education, etc) that compares children of never-married parents with children of divorce and others.

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Washington, D.C.: So the "dirty little secret" of divorced mothers is that they sometimes "sleep late" when their kids are visiting the other parent? WHY is that a "dirty little secret?" In a house with two parents, one might take over so that the other can sometimes catch up on sleep. In a house with one parent, this is simply not so. You have revealed a bias against single parents that may color your ostensibly "neutral" social scientific work. The statement about "dirty little secrets" is nothing short of insulting.

Elizabeth Marquardt: If you like this exchange, you might enjoy my blog, www.familyscholars.org

Again, merely noting what two single mothers wrote in parenting magazines. Please.

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Washington, D.C.: In a marriage which is civil (but of the separate bedrooms variety), does it make it easier on the children to delay the divorce until the children are in their early 20s?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I think that parents certainly have a "right" to divorce once their kids leave home (and please, before everyone jumps on me, I've noted earlier that *some divorces are necessary* even earlier), but at that point it's almost a question of what the parents will lose, more than the kids. As a divorced parent you are likely to see less of your future grandchildren, because there will be 3-4 sets of grandparents. If you initiate the divorce, some or all of your grown children may take years or more to forgive you for it (rightfully or not, but it's something to consider). Your relationships within your extended family and broader community will change. When you get sick someday, it will be harder for your grown kids to care for you if you and your ex live in separate places. Given all that, it may still be the right decision for you, but it will not be easy or simple.

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Washington, D.C.: Wonderful book. I wonder why it is that parents don't realize that when they split up they are dealing a double-blow to their kids. First, the child's world is shattered by the split. Secondly, both parents usually must now work. If one of the parents had been stay-at-home, the children now face this second loss. Why is it that the culture, media, what have you, are not alerting people to this consequence in the reams of writing in heath and family pages about family and divorce?

Elizabeth Marquardt: You're quite right. It's something I point out sometimes but you're right that it should be more front and center.

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Rockville, Md.: Some religions do require pre-marital education. My fiancee and I were at a retreat for this over the weekend. The problem may be there is no secular outlet for these issues.

The education was especially helpful to my fiancee, who is a child of divorce, to hear other long-married couples talk about the years that weren't so great, but that it didn't mean they didn't stay together or love each other.

Elizabeth Marquardt: I think religions requiring it makes a lot of sense. Religious community participation asks something of you. This is a good thing to ask of people in a faith community. And with 75% of weddings still taking places in houses of worship, clergy have an obligation to provide these couples with high quality pre marriage education, and to provide help for married couples in their congregations.

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Silver Spring, Md.: The idea that part-time parenting would be the result of divorce hits a nerve with me. I remember when my children were small thinking that if I divorced at least I'd get some time off.

The standard answer is 'hire a sitter, go out with your husband'. Well that is pretty darn hard around here where not every teen is anxious to earn money, and parents are already coordinating sports and lesson activities. Getting a sitter for a weekend is a major production.

I'd like to suggest a line of study where you look at the participation of grandparents in marital happiness. My in-laws were forever doing this or that and couldn't help. I always envied those whose parents were eager to help them out. I think that makes an important difference.

Elizabeth Marquardt: thanks for sharing this. There's a real discussion here to have, isn't there? I appreciate you being willing to "go there."

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Laurel, Md.: From your article: "Research shows that two-thirds of divorces now end low-conflict marriages, where there is no abuse, violence or serious fighting."

Is it conceivable that maybe parents see that this is where they're ultimately headed, and divorce before they get there?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I don't know, when people are abusive, violent, or prone to awful fights, then tend to start this stuff pretty early in a marriage. But it's a good question...

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Leesburg, Va.: If I am visiting a new girlfriend, who lives across the country, for the first time, is it best to make the first visit when the new girlfriend's daughter is away visiting her father? Thank you.

Elizabeth Marquardt: I would tend to think so, yes.

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Washington, D.C.: How representative was your "study" and was it peer reviewed or published anywhere other than your book? Some of the questions seemed pretty vague and some of the feelings about lack of trust are influenced by a lot more than just whether or not your parents divorced. Perhaps we should discourage people from getting married and having children in the first place rather than promoting marriage as the end all be all of what it means to be a fulfilled individual. Research on the effect of marriage on women's health is particularly interesting in that respect.

Elizabeth Marquardt: The full survey data is reported in the back of Between Two Worlds. You can also find a full explanation for how the study was done in the book.

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Bowie, Md.: My sister in law stayed married for the kids. She is a martyr with five kids and wonderful mother. She has been dominated, disregarded and disrespected and cheated on by her husband. Now at 47, she is in very poor health and is literally/slowly dying. Can you really say this is best for the kids? The type of literature scaring mothers about how their kids will do with divorce keeps mothers making these choices. Someone should study kids in these marriages. They are insecure and unable to form relationships of their own that are any better.

Elizabeth Marquardt: I do worry about women in abusive marriages hearing my message and digging in further. That's why in every media appearance I'm always careful to say that sometimes divorce is necessary, to talk about high conflict marriages, and to talk about some of the things that characterize them.

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Alexandria, Va.: Thanks Elizabeth. I know this is a hard message for some people, but it needs to said. Enough with the "live for yourself" society.

I'm getting married myself in January (in my mid-thirties now) and am more anxious about my parents and their spouse being together for the first ever (and it's been 20 years) than the wedding itself. In your studies, did you cover the anxieties facing adult children of divorce before their marriages? And are their good resources for dealing with such problems? Thanks for saying it straight!

Elizabeth Marquardt: check out "for your marriage" at http://www.betweentwoworlds.org/ there are great resources out there now for all us freaked out by the prospect of marriage...

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Northern Virginia: I'm in my 40s; my late parents divorced when I was 8. They had a "good divorce" as you describe it and tried hard to handle the situation gracefully and without conflict. I lived with my mother and visited my father each Saturday.

The divorce (which she did not want) transformed my mother's life. She went from being the butt of jokes and an inadequate stay-at-home housekeeper, to a successful career as a teacher. In retirement, she was a beloved community leader who made lasting contributions. She remains a role model for me even now that she's gone. As a child and teenager, I also saw far more of my father than before the divorce-- time that I sometimes resented then but treasure now.

Your approach seems to look only at "what's good for the child" (in terms of emotional development) vs. "what's good for the parents" (in some hedonistic, self-indulgent way) -- ignoring broader issues like benefits to the community and lost human potential. I think that's far too narrow a focus. One size doesn't fit all, and a "good divorce," even in the absence of abuse, can lead to a good outcome.

Elizabeth Marquardt: This is a very powerful story you tell. I'm listening. Thank you for sharing it.

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Chicago, Ill.: Fascinating article. Are you saying there are no ways to minimize the long term effects short of not getting a divorce? I work with children with terminal illness. We can't undo the reality but we can minimize some of the emotional devastation. Surely there must be similarities?

Elizabeth Marquardt: I think if divorced parents read Between Two Worlds they will understand better why their child appears burdened even if they are doing the divorce the "right" way -- and that understanding could help to reduce the child's sense of isolation. The task does not go away, but it would at least be a less lonely one.

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Washington, D.C.: What about the effects of divorce on children who have left home for college, young adulthood, etc.? Or is divorce mostly traumatic for minors?

Elizabeth Marquardt: A book by Brooke Foster being published in Jan by Random House, titled The Way We Were, looks at that very question.

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Arlington, Va.: I was so pleased to see your essay and I am planning to see "The Squid and the Whale." My parents divorced when I was in my early 30s (I'm now in my early 40s). When parents divorce it is unbearably painful for children, regardless of their age. I felt (and continue to feel) that their split somehow negated my childhood and our family. We never discuss our family or our experiences prior to the time of the split. It's as if all our lives restarted at that moment. Despite the fact that so much of who I am was formed by my family and relationship with my parents as a unit, I am not able to acknowledge any of that time with either parent.

Adults need to understand that divorce has repercussions that will reverberate through their children through the rest of their lives.

Elizabeth Marquardt: I have heard that before, that the hardest thing divorce does when it occurs after the child is grown is throw all those memories into question. You can't look at family photos the same way again. Was it all a lie?

It's a like a cruise that ends in a shipwreck. Even if the cruise had a lot of great times, that wreck at the end tends to color the whole experience.

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Washington, D.C. : A follow-up - thanks for taking my question/comment. Your distinction between high-conflict and low-conflict marriages is exactly what makes me think you advocate a "Pretend everything's great and just grit your teeth and keep smiling" approach. A 'low-conflict' marriage can be one in which both spouses are desperately miserable and demoralized, and they're just too drained to yell, or they're passive-aggressive, etc. Just because they're not screaming doesn't mean there isn't unhappiness, and it doesn't mean kids won't pick up on the unhappiness. And it sends the message to the children that if objects aren't being thrown on a regular basis and if there's not a lot of yelling, that's a good marriage. Why is it good for children, and society, to promote this concept of marriage?

Elizabeth Marquardt: Why do so many people think that children are exquisitely attuned to parental unhappiness when parents are married, yet blind to parental unhappiness and post-divorce tensions once the marriage ends?

Other fairly "pro"- divorce researchers have found that after divorce there is typically two years of chaos -- yes, just pure chaos -- before any semblance of family routines can begin to get established again. Parents are rocked by divorce and left enormously vulnerable. Do the kids notice? Well, yes.

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Fairfax, Va.: In the article, you wrote "Jen Robinson...found that she made friends easily, 'but always in distinct groups that seldom interacted. When they did, I felt internally pressured to please both groups and at the same time to negotiate the interaction between them.'" I had the exact same experience, yet my parents were and are happily married. Can you be sure that effects like these come from divorce? Maybe they're just a part of someone's personality?

Elizabeth Marquardt: In the study, children of divorce were often two to three times more likely to report these kinds of feelings. So, yes, some from intact families can feel this way, but children of divorce are much, much more likely to.

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Elizabeth Marquardt: I want to thank everybody for joining me here today. Quite a discussion! I hope you'll consider reading Between Two Worlds: The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce (Crown).

And if you enjoyed this, we host a debate on this and related topics at our blog, http://www.familyscholars.org/

Thanks again for everybody sharing, and apologies to the questions I could not get to. There were so many :)

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3 Minute Speech

From this Saturday, we will have a 3 minute speech time when you will get a sudden topic and a chance to talk based on a logical process of thinking.

See you on the 12th of November!^^

[Kee淸潭@Mars]

어디서 이렇게 훌륭한 토픽을 구하지......

[Charles]

you told me that you would let me know how to get these articles. didn't you?

[spinkly]

go to www.washingtonpost.com, and then join as a member with free of charge. There is a button written as discussion on the top of the website, and then you will find out!^^ See you soon.