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TV Channel 3 Sun Feb 29 09:30:25 2004 >>> Good morning, everyone. We have breaking news from haiti. Under pressure from rebels surrounding the capital and foreign governments around the world, the embattled president jean-bertrand aristide has left the country. Several hundred U.S. Marines are now expected to arrive in haiti over the next couple of days to provide security. We'll bring you full coverage with reports from haiti and the state department, interviews in our studio and in-depth analysis from our foreign policy panel, former U.N. Ambassador richard holbrooke, the president on the council of foreign relations, richard haass, plus our own fareed zakaria and george will. It's all coming up this morning. >> Announcer: From abc news, "this week with george stephanopoulos." Now reporting from the abc news studios in washington, george stephanopoulos. >>> Before we get to haiti, we wanted to update you on a major tanker explosion off the coast of virginia. Three crew members of the "bow mariner" were killed, six were rescued and 18 others missing. The coast guard is now searching for survivors. >>> Now to our top story. President jean-bertrand aristide has resigned. He was escorted out of the country with the help of U.S. Jeffrey kofman is on the scene. Take us through what happened this morning. >> Good morning, george. The president left the country at 6:45 A.M. Eastern time. As you know, this program had an appointment with the president an on-camera interview. We were at the palace gates at the appointed hour, just after 6:00 A.M. When we arrived we found the gates chained shut. We asked the security guards to get in and meet with the president and they said there is no one there and they pointed their guns and said we should leave promptly and we did. He was flown about 700 miles from here, maybe heading for south africa. >> Who's in charge now? >> Under the haegz constitution, the chief justice will succeed him. It's a little complicated, though, george, because the constitution says has to be ratified by the parliament. There hasn't been elections since 2000. That can't be done. It's not clear alexander has the authority because he was close to aristide and he may not be able to move the country behind the era. They held a news conference that aristide left to avoid bloodshed and with him was james foley. >> What is the situation like on the streets this morning? Is there any bloodshed? >> Well, george, there's two questions and that's one of them. What will happen on the streets, how will the people react and what will the rebels do who control after of this country? On the streets we're seeing some celebration and some an arcing and looting. We're hearing some sporadic gunfire. People rolling back the block blockaids that were set up by aristide's street gang. There is a lot of celebration we're hearing in the north and the other rebel strongholds and the rebels have said all along that if aristide loaves, they'll lay down their guns. We're still waiting to hear from them. >>> Now, quickly to the state department where jonathan carl has been on the post this morning, as well. Secretary powell has been working on this for days. It does appear the white house statement last night where they basically blamed aristide for the violence and the caus osin haiti pushed him over the edge. >> Most importantly, here, canada and france on this issue, there are preparations for a multi-national force with a significant detention of U.S. Military personnel to go into haiti. They're calling it a stabilization force. They don't want this to look like an invasion and look like U.S. Unilateral action and you'll see a significance presence of canadian troops, french troops and troops from other nations. Powell made it very clear that aristide needed to go, while they were making that, you also saw the white house statement placing the blame on aristide, there is no desire to see the rebel groups come into power. What you will see now, george, is a lot of talk about a constitutional process. The white house wants to be invited in by an interim government. The constitutional suckcessor to aristide, he will be simply a transitional figure. They want to move to a government that will incorporate the peaceful opposition. >> Jonathan, we only have a few seconds. Any sign now of when that invitation will come for the U.S. Troops and when secretary powell will come out and address the situation? >> There have been no deployment orders issued yet. The troops will come from their naval ship standby in norfolk, virginia. We expect it be very soon. A stabilization force will go in quickly that is needed on the ground in hity. >> John than carl at the state department, many thanks. >>> We're now joined with senator mike de, ewine of ohio. And, congressman, let me begin with you, i know you have spoken with president aristide, former president aristide several times over this last week, as recently as yesterday, i believe. He insisted right up through last night that he was going to stay. What happened overnight? >> Well, i was speaking last night with secretary powell and he would have me to believe that we were still negotiating with the opposition to have them to respect the constitution and election of president aristide. Last thursday, but many members of the congressional black caucus, 19 members. We met with the president of the united states, condoleezza rice and, again, colin powell. Senator harkens, yesterday, was in touch with colin powell. I don't know what is going on, but we are just as much a part of this as the rebels, as the looters or anyone else. They would have us to believe in the white house that we respected the caribbean countries coming together and saying that aristide would stay in office until 2006, that would we would select or help to select a prime minister and work out a diplomatic solution, but while they were saying this, they made it abundantly clear that aristide would do best by leaving the country, which means the rebels, the looters and even those soldiers that general powell chased out of haiti coming back and taking over was given to believe that they should never, ever, ever accept aristide as the president. So, I don't know who we deal with now, but one thing is clear if you're elected as president of a country, don't depend on the united states respectable of law. >> Pretty serious charge. What do you think the united states should have done? >> All we needed to do was to support the international accords. You don't deal with looters, you don't deal with these rebels that have been chased out of the country and you respect the elections. If there's reason for reform, you demand that reform, but all we had to do is send 200, 300 troops over there and tell those people to put down the arms. The aristide supporters were with machetes, said they would guard the palace. The rebels told the world they were prepared to geinto the palace and take the port-au port-au-prince. The only good news out of this story is that allegedly aristide and his family are safe. But in terms of respect for the rule of law, this country has failed us. >> Let me bring you in here now, you're with the intelligence committee and not the foreign relations committee. You were pressing for U.S. Troops to go in earlier. >> I was. I thought it was necessary to avoid a blood bath in port-au-prince. >> What do you think should be done now? >> I think now, george, i think president aristide did the right thing. I think sometimes leaders have to make difficult and tough decisions that are in the interest of their country. I think he's to be commended for this. >> But you do believe the united states troops should go in, as well? >> I think it's important that thep tos be put in place immediately. It's been pointed out this morning that there is a vacuum in port-au-prince today and we're libel to have more violence today and that violence will continue until troops are put in place. >> I know you have a lot of contacts in haiti, I've been there several times over the last decade, what are are you hearing from inside haiti this weekend? >> As of yesterday it looked like pictures they saw of somalia where you've got young men with stolen vehicles riding around with guns, guns in the back of their cars. You know, people are fleeing, trying to get into my friend's homes. Women, six children who are just scared to death. It is a very chaotic situation there. You know, we have gangs, aristide's gangs who are armed. And aristide did a good thing yesterday, he basically told them to stop that. But now we have a chaotic situation and troops have to go in there very sqik quickly. What will happen we hope this morning is that the orderly transition based on a constitution we hope is taking place right now where the president of the supreme court will be sworn in. The proposal that the united states put forward along with the other day that was rejected, unfortunately, by the opposition the political opposition, is gone. We hope that can take place and there will be an independent prime minister who will be selected. You will have a new coalition government and then, george, the important thing is that the international community get behind this new government and put the assistance in there and we look at the long-term economic development of haiti, which is really what has to take place. >> I know you are upset about what happened overnight, but what do you think the united states should be doing right now? >> We should have done this before, when aristide was brought back through the efforts of colin powell and president clinton, they disbanded the army they should have had a better-trained police force, but the international community failed to give the type of support for dooley elected president to build the infrastructure, the hospitals, the schools and to encourage foreign investment, democracy cannot strive unless its roots are embedded in jobs and we really have let haiti down. It's really disappointing. So many people in the congress and what we're doing now after encouraging this kooup is what would should have done when he was begging for help from the international community. We believe to help haiti and restore democracy, but, privately, we were really supporting the rebels. >> Yeah, the only thing i, we worked together on haiti issues and he and i disagree a little bit. I don't think we encourage this. One thing i would point out, secretary powell worked very hard to try to get the political opposition as to distinguish from these military thugs. Thugs who charlie is absolutely right are thugs trying to overthrow the government, but secretary powell worked very hard to try to get the political opposition to agree to form a coalition government. Unfortunately they just did not do it and here we are today, but charlie and I, I think, really agree that one of the things we have to do now is to work very diligently with this new government. We hope the new government that emerges to have, george, some real economic development in haiti. One of the things that we've worked on together is a bill that we've introduced in congress to help trade, you know instead of aid what we need is some aid but we also need trade. At one point haiti had 30,000 assembly jobs or excuse me, 100,000 assembly jobs in their country. If we passed a very small bill that we've introduced in congress, that would go within a year to 100,000 assembly jobs and go a long way to help the poor people of haiti and to help stabilize that economy. That needs too be done. >> Okay, senator mike dewine and senator charles rangel, thanks very much. We'll be right back. >>> We're back now with our foreign policy panel. I'm joined by the president of the council on foreign affairs, richard haass, former U.N. Ambassador richard holbrooke and our own george will and fareed zakaria. A lot of news this morning. Richard haass, let me begin with you and get you to react first of all to congressman rangel's pretty severe charge. He said the united states is as much a part of the coup d' etat as the rebels. >> Not engineered by a few people. Had access to a presidential palace. This was something much more revolutionary, if you will, from the streets. Where I would agree with the congressman the united states is now a part of it. The united states clearly has important interests at stake to go beyond humanitarian. There is that failing state, weak states can be as much a problem in this world as strong states. It could become a power vacuum or refugeies could set up shop. Refugees could destabilize the caribbean and the issue as senator dewine was suggests is for the united states to work with other countries in the region, working with the united nations to essentially not -- to essentially make sure this doesn't happen again. We now have ones of those second rare chances in life to get haiti right. This time we're not talking about nation building but my own sense we're talking about a serious amount of nation building with the united states working with others. Would really get involved intrusively not simply in providing security but essentially to get this political system, this economy up and running on a sustainable path. >> Richard haass, that second chance is probably our 30th chance over the century. >> Since 1805 haiti has had the most historically unstable government in the world. Since 1915, the U.S. Has been continuously involved in its affairs. By calling for aristide to leave and have him leave within a few days, the administration has really taken ownership of the problem. Whether one likes it or not, whether one thinks we're getting too involved or not and this will be a heated debate they cannot walk away from the consequence of their own action. There are 20,000 american citizens in haiti. The president must protect them. There is a political instability which could lead to massive refugee flows which would have an enormous effect in florida and louisiana and there's the historic problems of haiti including I must note aids which is a very big problem there and since this tremendous movement there is a great danger of that so let's be clear whether one likes it or not, we are now going to get pulled into haiti. Haiti is not a far away place. It is just off the florida coast. >> Richard holbrooke says ownership and you will start shaking your head. >> From 1915 to 1934, the government of haiti was called the united states marine corps which a doesn't want the job now and b has other jobs on its plate. We may have noticed from afghanistan to iraq and elsewhere. We're always told to learn the lessons of vietnam but there's one we never seem to learn and it's the lesson of autumn 1963 when we become complicit in any way regime change as we did with the coup against diem to fixing these countries -- >> Let me interrupt. I was in saigon on november 1st, 1963, on the day george is referring to when diem was overthrown. For me personally watching it personally, i was 21 years old, watching it and I agree with george on this, this is one of the great lessons we should not get involved in these things in the micro management, but let's start with facts. In the last four days. The bush administration did just that by publicly pulling the plug on aristide without sending troops in. There was no follow-up plan sort of like iraq. So the lessons of vietnam cut two ways, the truth is as richard haass last just said, george, you may disagree but I must put it on the table, whether you agree or not with what happened, aren't we now deeply implicated in what happens going forward by virtue of the last few days and history >> It depends partly on what you mean pulling the plug. The united states plays the role of god in this. >> No. We announced that aristide must go. >> What if we hadn't? Would the mobs say, oops, the united states hasn't said this. We'll pause at the suburbs? >> The flip side would have been, fareed, the united states could have sent in the troops before aristide left, protected him and sort of encouraged a political settlement in that way. >> I think the real lesson here is that if you don't do preventive nation building or preventive conflict resolution, you will end up doing more of it later. If you look at haiti, we were there ten years ago, we had a chance as richard haass points out. We blew it in the sense that we didn't stay long enough. The primary lesson of nation building is stay long enough to actually achieve something. Fine, we'll have a regime change now. This is the 33rd coup in haiti's history. In order to ensure that we are not back in a year to do the 34th regime change, what we have to figure out is how do you do with limited resources some kind of post-conflict stabilization? The good news is this isn't actually as difficult as people make it out to be. You can get international help. You can get international funding. If you work through the U.N. You get a lot of legitimacy, but you just have to be patient and stay in there so that you don't confront this problem every three or four years because haiti is -- richard holbrooke is exactly right. It is deeply unstable for all kinds of social reasons we can't solve. We're not going to get rid of all that. We can create a more stable political situation there. >> And richard haass, one of the things we did see was secretary of state colin powell working closely with dominic de villepin. Who would have thought it. >> Another sign that they have a rationale, shall we say and despite the problems with iraq, despite the end of the cold war increasingly the united states and europe have a major vested interest in finding ways to cooperate do deal with the global issues and regional issues that are the issues of today's world. So I wouldn't be surprised that the united states and france ultimately on the ground with troops in a place like haiti, two of many countries and as fareed probably said, this should not at the end of the day be a U.S. Problem. What we want to do is get the international community and region involved for two reason, one to make it politically acceptable to haitians outsiders are going to need to be there a long time and secondly to share the burdens. We have lots of other things on our plate, arguably we're even more important vital american interests are at stake. As a result we need to make this as collected and if you will as broad an action as possible and I think the opportunity is there. >> So far as I can tell the french decided on regime change in haiti before the united states did before the united states -- >> Which is why it truly galls you, doesn't it? >> Well, no. Fareed and others say, well, we must be patient to do these jobs. Patience isn't the problem it seems to me. We don't know how to do them. The weekly standard which is a sort of house organ for those who want to fix the world says the united states has several long-term objectives for haiti. Let's count them. Achieving stable democratic government. Then in the afternoon building an economy out of aid capital, repairing ecological damage unequaled on the planet forcing the colombian cocaine underworld to stop using the country as one of its shipment centers. >> Gee, I agree with all that. But, george, I would say I have a slightly more limited ambition. Create enough stability that you don't have a flow of refugees, a flow of disease, destabilizing political trends as richard says a potential for terrorism of some kind setting up shop there. We are going to have to do something, george. If we bite the bullet and try to do it intelligently it'll work. If we are reluctant and drag kicking and screaming as you said would, we'll still be there. >> You say do it intelligently. You assume and maybe you are pea right on the basis of what I don't know, however, that intelligence properly applied will fix haiti. I mean, on what basis -- I had a son by the way who was with the marine corps in haiti a few years ago and I said office a marine corps officer in the infantry. I said what is your mission. He said force protection. If I got this right our forces are in haiti to protect our forces in haiti. The work is very steady. >> Richard, do we have any choice at this point? >> Here's the dilemma. Haiti is probably the most unstable country in the world over the last 200 years but because of its locate, its history and the events of the last week, whether george likes it or not, we're trapped. Now, "the weekly standard" stuff he read is gibberish read by people who are applying a global theory to a specific problem which they know nothing about, and with all due respect, the nation building. >> Not to put too fine a point on it, right. >> It's something they could write about any country in the world and some countries like bosnia we can make some progress. Even afghanistan. Haiti is different. It is about as tragic a mess as there is in the world but because of its history, its location and what's just happened, we're going to get involved. Now, here's the key question and we're -- we haven't really addressed it. We can sit here and say we should or shouldn't get involved. The real question is we are involved. Are we going to make a political commitment and not repeat the woodrow wilson era mistake of having marns run the place for 15 years because they won't happen again. It is not going to be the most expensive project in the world. It's not iraq and it's not going to be the cheapest. If we don't do it, the place is going to get worse and we're going to have refugees and chaos. If we do do it, it's going to take some serious commitment. We can't go through another one of these halfway commitments. >> I think we have a short-term objective which is even more specific. The people who have been rebelling against aristide include some very nasty characters and we have to decide what are we going to do about them. Because we might come up with come constitutional solution ahead of the supreme court is going to rule haiti. I don't think those people rebelling on the streets with guns are going to agree to that wane we have to decide -- >> No one is going to end up ruling haiti. It's going to be chaotic and that's why outside involvement and I agree with fareed, it should involve an international U.N. Cover but it must have U.S. Leadership. It will be unavoidable and I want to underscore what fareed has said the people leading the rebellion are murderers, drug lords and criminals and they have, I regret to say, but the facts are unavoidable a long history of involvement with american intelligence services. >> Which is why when the international community goes in led by the united states in haiti it's not simply going to be the necessarily work with those who are behind this. This is going to be ultimate I think, if I had to predict, a serious case of nation building and it might meep for a while that the international community takes on many of the roles that normally your government would take on. In some ways I think we're looking at some version of if you want to call it a protector. >> To underscore east timor, that was a U.N. Mission, beautifully run by the late sergio de mello with tremendous australian support but the U.N. Was in front. This applies equally to afghanistan and iraq. George will is right when he says americans are going to say we're occupied elsewhere but the objective facts of the events of the last few days and hours mean we are unavoidably involved. I agree with what charlie rangel and senator dewine said on that score. >> De mello was killed in iraq. And we want to come back and talk about iraq but first we have to take this break. >> Announcer: "This week with george stephanopoulos" will continue in a moment after this from our abc stations. >>> We're back now with our panel and before we get to that, we talked earlier in the last discussion about how dominique de villepin and colin powell worked together. President bush was also making up with one of his former adversaries, the chancellor of germany, gerhard schroeder. He was there to meet on the middle east peace initiative on how the united states and germany were going to get back together and work together on the reconstruction of iraq and get behind the U.N. Plan. That's something I discussed with chancellor schroeder after his meeting with president bush on friday afternoon. I was watching you and president bush in the oval office and it really seems like you've buried the hatchet. >> Translator: Well, certainly we have. We had differences about the necessity of the iraq war, but that's in the past. We now have a common interest, to see that iraq becomes stable and democratic and it is certain that we must bring this common interest to expression‎. >> The question is how do you bring that to expression‎? In your joint communique both you and the president bush said you welcomed a growing and vital role. What role should that take? >> Translator: There already is a role of the united nations. Brahimi has arrived in iraq for the second time in a very short time. The question simply is how and in what structure should sovereignty be transferred to the iraqis themselves and what role the united nations is going to play in this time and I am happy to see that it has become clear that we can't get there from here without the united nations and I think that's the same case in afghanistan. We have to have the united nations. >> Are you certain that sovereignty can be transferred to an iraqi government by july 1st and what form do you think that transitional government should take? >> Translator: I hope that it succeeds but I, of course, don't have the detailed information in order to eval‎uate now whether or not it will succeed. The issue now is to make sure that this new iraqi government is more representative than the current iraqi council. How that is to be reached is, of course, the job that mr. Brahimi has to do. He is one of the most experienced negotiators in this area and indeed has proven his value in afghanistan and we have great hopes for his work. Let's let him do his work. >> Two final questions on iraq. Ayatollah sistani said yesterday he believes a new U.N. Security council resolution is needed to be implemented in order for the elections to go forward by the end of the year. Do you agree with that first of all and, secondly, once a transitional iraqi government is in place, will germany be willing to send peacekeeping troops to iraq? >> Translator: Well, let me deal with the first -- second question first. We have made it very clear to everybody our resources are completely dedicated now to afghanistan and on the balkans and therefore we are saying no to that question. We also are saying no to that question because there's no majority for that issue in the german parliament. That has something to do with the past and I think that we would be overstretching if we did that. As far as the demands of the ayatollah, I can't eval‎uate that right now. I think that before we talk about demands or make comments about demands we should wait and let mr. Brahimi do his work and wait to see what his recommendations are and then to make decisions. I would like to do things in that order. >> And we're back now with our panel and richard holbrooke, when I listened to chancellor schroeder say let's wait for lakhdar brahimi, it doesn't sound different from what ambassador bremer and other united states officials are saying and that's kind of a change of tune for the united states in the last couple of weeks but comes at a time just last night another deadline slipped, the interim constitution for iraq was supposed to be drafted last night. And the timetable as we've talked about on this panel in the past for turning over power to the iraqis is in some danger. >> It is and I think your interview with schroeder which was very revealing shows a man who thinks he's won a big one. He feels two things, that he's been received back into the oval office and the good graces of the president after being thrown out and, secondly, he's been vindicated on iraq. That's why he gave this rather general woolly worded but nonetheless clear-cut set of statements supporting the U.N. Supporting brahimi. As we said last time we were on this program with you, every single deadline for the july 1st all the bench marks heading to that have been lost. However, the administration is clearly going to go ahead and bremer will leave. An embassy will replace the coalition authority and then what? We don't know. There won't be a status of forces agreement so american troops will be jeopardized and at risk of being seeded by angry iraqis without clear jurisdiction. There is going to be a tremendous argument over who rules. The auguries are not good right now. What schroeder has said about brahimi amounts to this. He thinks we should turn over the U.N. Last time I was on the program with you, george will said the big winner here was the united nations. I think he meant it in a negative way but in fact, in fact, george, I think that we've got another proof that flaws and all, weaknesses and all, the U.N. Is an important part of policy. We need it and we should work with it to make it serve our ends and that goes to haiti also. >> Well, in haiti, one of the functions of haiti is to make governing iraq seem like a day at the beach. But and we'll see what the U.N. Can contribute in haiti. It struck me earlier when talking about haiti you said the united states is trapped. Recalls to mind the description richard nixon gave of the united states. We will not be a pitiful helpless giant. We are a giant but we seem to be trapped all kinds of places. In iraq, the united states for all its power is utterly at the mercy of mr. Sistani, who so far has been quite statesmanlike but suppose one day he is not. >> And that day will come once the U.S. Leaves. >> But, george, do you doubt it? >> In iraq, in iraq we have created a crisis of our own making. In order to demonstrate that in some way we have achieved some kind of progress before the november elections, we are in effect cutting and running. We may call it what we will, but we have hastened accelerated training of iraqi security and police forces, what was meant to be a five-year program has turned into a one-year program. We have abandoned all plans for serious economic reform in iraq. Last week very quietly the plan to privatize 150 state owned iraqi companies was shelved. We have been trying to draw down troops desperately and as one member of the cpa, the coalition provisional authority put it to me, he said they've trying to send troops back home. They couldn't send the troops back home so they decided they better send somebody back home and that somebody is jerry bremer. >> Should they slip the deadline richard? >> On the deadline no. Come midnight on june 30th the united states has to hand the keys over to some iraqis. The question is obviously which which iraqis and ultimately they'll be replaced by elections. But I don't think that's really the key question. The single most important dynamic going on in iraq right now is this question of this constitution because at the end of the day it doesn't so much matter what iraqis are appointed by caucuses or chosen by themselves or elected, what have you, what's going to make for some form of democracy in iraq is going to be that there's going to be some limits on whoever wields political power . It can't be winner take all. There has to be some dispersal of authority throughout iraq so those who occupy the presidential palace cannot rule it well. That is the hard -- >> The question is how far should it go. As far as I understand the differences now there's some difference about how far islamic law should extend but a serious difference between the shiites, sunnis and kurds and the kurdish minority in the north wants autonomy. >> That is one of the fault lines and the real question is can you come up with a formula which is enough for the kurds and not too much for either on one hand the sunni and shia and on the other hand the turks. I don't know if we can find the answer. That though is one of the key questions. There is the question of islamic law, the question of presidential power. All, you know, enormous questions and it's one of the reasons that you have to say the jury is still out. It's similarly out on the security side. We don't know exactly what kind of a capability the iraqis are going to have how quickly. What it suggests to me and here I probably disagree with fareed that we won't cut and run with U.S. Forces. I think you're looking at a U.S. And international military presence there for some time to come. What I'm hoping is that after the iraqis have sovereignty come july 1, the possibility now opens up to internationalize that and I don't think it's crazy to say that within a number of months you could have nato playing the sort of role in iraq that now nato is playing in afghanistan. So gradually the united states, almost through the back door, is going to probably internationalize its policy in iraq with the U.N. And with nato. >> And richard, chancellor schroeder said he wouldn't send troops were placed, he wouldn't object to some kind ofinate nato presence. >> That's upon important statement by the germans but this is not about the troop presence. This is about the politics and let's be clear on this. The road to democracy in the middle east is not beginning in iraq as a lot of people said on this program and elsewhere a year ago. That was a wild idea. If you're going to start promoting democracy let's start with countries that are not so torn apart with such artificial 1922 borders. Secondly, after july 1st, my fear, and I'm pessimistic on this, I must admit, my fear is that with the american overseeing role gone and no real structure in place, that you're going to have the groups including now the turkmens who are demonstrated to get coequal status, a group we never talk about, is going to go into the street, the place is going to fall apart. Americans and other troops are going to get caught in the middle and with all due respect to what george will said earlier haiti will look like a picnic compared to iraq. >> If all that is right george will is it perhaps wiser and probably too late for this simply to seek some sort of partition of iraq. >> It is too late because we've absolutely pledged ourself to the unity of the country. One of the pleasures, dick, of pessimism is that you're right more often than not and when you're not you're pleased but with regard to iraq, democracy is about 10% majority rule. Getting -- finding a majority willing and really able I guess to govern iraq is not hard. Finding a minority willing to be governed by the majority is a real problem. >> Possible? >> I think iraq is a very difficult place to have to try to start but we have no option. We're there now, and I think we have to remember the issue is not just the constitution. I agree entirely with richard haass. We need to work up a constitution but you know the world is littered and history is littered with finally written constitutions that achieve just the right balance. The wiemar constitution which preceded hitler was regarded as probably the best written constitution of the first half of the 20th century. The problem is creating a political bargain that allows the minorities to accept majority rule that allows the majorities to exercise it with restraints and in order to do all that you need some external authority. You need somebody helping in an overseeing role. That was why it was so crucial to have the united nations involved because you could stay. It would have given you the time to do all this. Right now we're going to have a very unstable situation where we're handing power over to an interim government of unknown legitimacy but U.S. Troops are still in the country. We still own the country but have no political power in it. >> Fareed, that has to be the last word. Thank you all for this discussion on haiti and iraq. I'll be back with the list. >>> Time now for "the list" and in our voices, pain, anger and penitence. Talk radio talks on the staggering report on sexual abuse in the catholic church. >> If this was anything else but the catholic church and a main street religion, this religion should be disbanded. >> As far as I'm concerned the vatican and pope should be ashamed of themselves. There's no leadership here. >> Someone has to come in from outside and clean this stuff up. >> I'm a lifelong catholic but I don't think it's anti-catholic to really want to fix this, but there has to be accountability and there has to be consequences and not only money paid out but I think legal consequences. >> I think that we're on the right track but -- >> I do too. >> But there's been a very, very deep betrayal there. Just ask any man or woman whose spouse have been unfaithful. Ask them how long it takes to rebuild trust. >> For images we went back stage for oscar week getting ready for hollywood's big night. >> I'm pleased to announce that the film selected as the best picture nominees for 2003 are "lord of the rings: The return of the king," "lost in translation," "master and commander: The far side of the world," "mystic river" and "seabiscuit." >> 2/29/04, sunday, february 29th. That's when we'll open the envelopes. We'll see you then. >> Good luck, everyone. >> Plenty of targets this week for the sunday funnies. >> As you know gibson's new film is surrounded in controversy. At particular issue a scene in which jews witnesses jesus' trial invoke a curse upon themselves and their descendants. Hello. Gibson clarified his position on the matter during an interview last week with abc's diane sawyer. >> And it's said that all jews for all times are cursed by god. They call this curse on their head for all time. This is not true. All jews for all times are not cursed by god. >> Okay, happy now, jews? I -- I the star of "air america" proclaim thee uncursed. >> Well, sir, people really want to know what you find so objectionable about same-sex marriage. >> Just try to understand, you allow gays to get a marriage license, what's next? Gay driver's licenses? Or gay fishing licenses? >> Okay, now, sir what is gay fishing? >> Well, that's when you go fishing and you like dudes. >> Independent party news, he may have landed george bush the white house in 2002 but not stopping ralph nader from running again. Kicked off his candidacy in true nader style with this sound bite. >> Our campaign in novel, serious and lighthearted ways means to end the procession of well-being through all the states and to galvanize civic and political energies long beyond november 2004. >> Nader -- ralph nader is the perfect candidate for those who support kerry but wish he spoke in an even duller mon tone. A still bitter al gore plans to get revenge by endorsing nader. [ Laughter ] >> That was the sunday funnies. I'll be back with in memoriam. If a relaxing moment... >>> We end as always with in memoriam. >> The thing is mr. Vitti, mr. Vitti has been detained, plus he's sorry for his detainment. Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars oh I'll be seeing you in all the old familiar places >> Cecelia had beautiful penmanship. She was too young for me, but she was enchanting. >> Two U.S. Soldiers were killed in iraq this week. Another in afghanistan. >>> Thanks for sharing part of your sunday with us. Until next week, that's "this week." <